Does anyone not believe in 0w-20?

[Rat407]

Are UOA's worth anything? From what I have seen, there are a bunch of excellent 0w-20 UOA's that show great results.

Just don't understand the hate of 0w-20 if it is spec'ed for an application.

 

[BrocLuno]

No hate, just reservations as it's not what we grew up with. We have less history with it...

Redline sells 2wt (yeah, that is 2) oil for very tight bearings in some drag race engines. If you read their specs, it is 5W-20 equivalent - but in race-oil terms, it is 2wt. The others in that series are 10wt, 30wt, 40wt, 50wt, 70wt (nitro fuel cars).

There is a school of thought that very light oils help make power (say 8 for a Pro-Stock), but can lead to parts failure if not built specifically for that oil.

So OK, maybe the new motors are build specifically for the lighter oils - fine. But when the MFG's back spec a motor that was not originally assigned that oil for EPA credits, we know that it is political. Same as USA vs world spec for a given engine.

You could make the argument that USA oils are really good. And that the rest of the world suffers from lesser quality, so the MFG's are compensating in their world spec. But, we know that's a false assertion, for Europe anyway. Some of the best oils out there come from Europe like Motul 300V Ester, Ravenol, etc.

And a lot of folks on BITOG are car nuts. Who would waste this much time on oil for pity sake, unless we were/are. Car nuts don't drive like aunt June taking the kids to school. Lots of us beat on motors pretty hard. So we are looking for a "cushion" for reliability and long life.

Yeah, I know those are mutually exclusive - beating on a motor and long life. But the irrational part of us thinks that by doing XYZ, we can make up for the beating and thrashing

Look, I have another thread going about SAE30 oils being all that's needed maybe? It served us well for something like 80 years and the oils were not nearly as good as they are today.

Prolly still a good way to go for many because it's absolutely shear stable for the life of OCI. The pour point is below 0 (either one) so it's not out of the question for many who live in the south and the west.

We're splitting hairs here. This or that xxW oil for all conditions when we know that is not possible. Off-road, racing, severe duty, towing in the desert - all need precautions.

Maybe that's not you, but the irrational part of many on these boards is that one size fits all. 0W-20 don't fit me. 15W-30 SD HDEO, prolly don't fit you - but I don't hate you for not using it

 

[AuthorEditor]

Quote:
Maybe that's not you, but the irrational part of many on these boards is that one size fits all.

The irrational part is to think that the Internet hive brain knows more than GM, Ford, or Toyota about what oil is best to run in their vehicles. Who here on BITOG is standing behind their oil recommendation with a 100k powertrain warranty! Sure, anyone is free to experiment and try what they want to, but nobody has one shred of real scientific proof that running something different is better than what is recommended in the owner's manual.

 

[bbhero]

Well 100k miles isnt that much anymore is it?? An interesting in depth longitudinal study of how well 0w20 vs. 5w30 vs. 0w40 in motors that run past 200k even 300k miles would be interesting. Having said this, I ran the recommended 5w20 in my 08 Ford Fusion. I used Castrol gold bottle or Valvoline Synpower 5w20 for 5-6k mile runs. Car ran great with miniscule oil consumption. The only caveat I would say about running a operating viscosity 20 oil would be to run a good quality one. Which there are many good choices to choose from.

I do wonder a bit about Nissan having gone go a 0w20 for the VQ 3.5 motors in the last couple of years. If the capacity was like 5.5 to say 6.5 plus quarts then I would feel more comfortable in that. The European manufactors have larger sump capacities which lend themselves to being able to tolerate longer intervals and more time out of circulation that helps reduce heat in the oil. The larger capacity in the Ford Fusion 3.0 motor very likely helped the oil in terms of heat dissipation, lessening shear, and helping reduce the effects of fuel dilution.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
Quote:
Maybe that's not you, but the irrational part of many on these boards is that one size fits all.

The irrational part is to think that the Internet hive brain knows more than GM, Ford, or Toyota about what oil is best to run in their vehicles. Who here on BITOG is standing behind their oil recommendation with a 100k powertrain warranty! Sure, anyone is free to experiment and try what they want to, but nobody has one shred of real scientific proof that running something different is better than what is recommended in the owner's manual.


You want to pay me what the manufacturer has built in to the price for a 100k warranty? I will give you a 100K warranty if you use the oil to a spec and OCI I demand. So much for that Mickey Mouse argument!
What do you consider scientific proof? I blew my 93 Fireblade up using dealer supplied spec Honda oil and filter and so did a lot of other people. Honda quickly changed the spec to a higher viscosity oil when the dealers became littered with smoked Fireblade engines.

Its not hard to figure out the xw20 oils only meet a bare minimum standard when companies recommend or allow xw30 if the vehicle is used for towing or extended high speed operation.
That's a nice way of saying this swill isn't really good enough for anything but the most mundane driving conditions but if you really run this engine use a better oil.

 

[02s4audi]

Originally Posted By: bbhero
Well 100k miles isnt that much anymore is it?? An interesting in depth longitudinal study of how well 0w20 vs. 5w30 vs. 0w40 in motors that run past 200k even 300k miles would be interesting. Having said this, I ran the recommended 5w20 in my 08 Ford Fusion. I used Castrol gold bottle or Valvoline Synpower 5w20 for 5-6k mile runs. Car ran great with miniscule oil consumption. The only caveat I would say about running a operating viscosity 20 oil would be to run a good quality one. Which there are many good choices to choose from.

I do wonder a bit about Nissan having gone go a 0w20 for the VQ 3.5 motors in the last couple of years. If the capacity was like 5.5 to say 6.5 plus quarts then I would feel more comfortable in that. The European manufactors have larger sump capacities which lend themselves to being able to tolerate longer intervals and more time out of circulation that helps reduce heat in the oil. The larger capacity in the Ford Fusion 3.0 motor very likely helped the oil in terms of heat dissipation, lessening shear, and helping reduce the effects of fuel dilution.


You'd obviously have to run the different oils in the same type of motor but I would love to see a study of this. No motor is designed the same so you can't run different motors that spec different oil weights and expect to have 100% proof that 1 is better than others.

 

[bbhero]

Has the VQ changed that much from my generation to the current one?? I highly doubt it that is the case. So in this instance I would think it would be interesting to see a longitudinal study done with a quality 0w20 and a 5w30 with the same motor VQ 3.5 or the Ford Fusion 3.0. I don't believe the difference would be all that great with some motors. Others it might be more than one would anticipate.

 

[wrf01a]

Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
Quote:
Maybe that's not you, but the irrational part of many on these boards is that one size fits all.

The irrational part is to think that the Internet hive brain knows more than GM, Ford, or Toyota about what oil is best to run in their vehicles. Who here on BITOG is standing behind their oil recommendation with a 100k powertrain warranty! Sure, anyone is free to experiment and try what they want to, but nobody has one shred of real scientific proof that running something different is better than what is recommended in the owner's manual.


Finally a post that makes sense in this thread. If I need info about oil and engine protection, email Penzoil or Mobil 1 or someone who knows something about oil. Oh, owners manual, what a good idea.

From Penzoil (can be found on this website)
3. Lower viscosity oils are generally for the purpose of improving fuel economy. Engine wear and durability do not seem to be an issue with modern 0W-20 viscosity grades and the engines that call for them, but it is still a common question among enthusiasts. Balancing low viscosity/engine wear. My question is whether it would be beneficial to run a 5W-30 for a bit of added protection if one pushes the engine a bit harder than expected, (in a vehicle that calls for a 20 grade)?
In a vehicle calling for a 20 grade oil it would naturally be recommended to run a 20 grade oil, however your question raises a good point, is it beneficial to still choose a thicker grade of oil for added protection? Comparing a 20 and 30 grade oil from the same Brand and Tier it is likely they will share a very similar additive package and teat rate and therefore offer the same level of protection derived from the performance additives present in the oil, therefore differences in protection will be due to the higher oil film thickness potentially offered by the difference between a the 20 and 30 grade. Unless you are operating significantly harder than a normal duty cycle it is unlikely you will see any benefit. Significantly harder duty might mean a very high proportion of long idle time followed by sudden high speed accelerations (common in police duty as an example) or a harsh environment with lots of sand and dust (abrasive agents). In summary you’d need to push an engine a lot harder to see a benefit.

Originally Posted By: bbhero
Has the VQ changed that much from my generation to the current one?? I highly doubt it that is the case. So in this instance I would think it would be interesting to see a longitudinal study done with a quality 0w20 and a 5w30 with the same motor VQ 3.5 or the Ford Fusion 3.0. I don't believe the difference would be all that great with some motors. Others it might be more than one would anticipate.


Another Post that make sense

 

[Justin251]

Just received a tune to turn off the mds in my ram. I'll try running a 30 weight then for an oci and get a sample tested. Also to see how it affects mpgs.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh

And if the UOA doesn't "show it", how would you know what the HTHS is car-to-car? Especially in a premier synthetic oil?


Whole bunch of SAE papers show HTHS drops at half the percentage rate of KV100...it's a fair bet that just about everything does the same.

So what's your POV on HTHS loss with KV100 loss ?

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Its not hard to figure out the xw20 oils only meet a bare minimum standard when companies recommend or allow xw30 if the vehicle is used for towing or extended high speed operation.
That's a nice way of saying this swill isn't really good enough for anything but the most mundane driving conditions but if you really run this engine use a better oil.
What about the engines that do not specify any other viscosity? Based upon my experiences with xW-20, I would disagree that it is only for the most mundane use. I used 5W-20 for the first 100K and then switched to 0W-20 for the next 58K and towed 8-9K pounds in heat up to 117F. If xW-20 is as weak as all that, I am sure I would have had an issue with it. I would posit Honda had a design issue in those engines and a higher viscosity oil was their cheap bandaid fix to the problem (obviously, I have never owned one so maybe not, but it is a good guess).

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Well if that does happen, it appears that the millions and millions of Fords, Hondas, Toyotas, GM models, Hyundai cars, and everything else that has been running on it for the past 15+ years just keep going fine.

All the hysterics in this thread and every one like it are just flat out unfounded. Surely someone, somewhere on this board would have a bad UOA or a documented failure attributable to -20 oil by now, right?


I was responding to the statement that the 5W30 essentially becomes 5W20 (haven't seen a lot of that lately) as justification for the 5W20 as if they never change.

Used to be supported by the fact that 20s NEVER went out of grade, as the grade went down to ridiculously low viscosities. Now that's been fixed, many of the 20s ARE out of grade, due to either shear or fuel.

I agree there doesn't appear to be much showing in the UOS as a detrement.

 

[GMFan]

That Crown Vic taxi that picked you up at the airport with 300k miles on the clock very well may be running on bulk 20W oil.

The police car roaring down the highway in desert heat after idling for 2 hours may have been running on bulk 20W oil.

That pickup truck towing a boat trailer at 70mph down the interstate may be running on bulk 20W oil.

The ambulance cutting through traffic during rush hour may be running on bulk 20W oil.

So on and so forth. That tractor roaring down the interstate towing a fully loaded 53' trailer may very well be running 5w30 diesel oil. Even big rigs are switching to 5w30 oils. Do you think the fleet managers would run 5w30 oils if they knew it wore the engines out quicker?

The oil world is moving toward thinner oils. Engine oil technology may very well advance enough that additives can avoid wear with even thinner oils than we have today...hence why 0w16 oils are coming.

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point the passenger car market moves away from multi viscosity oils and simply specifies straight weight light oils.

 

[Justin251]

I have no doubt the thinner oil movement is for fuel economy. But so what if it's still up to the task for protection?

I think the quality ones are.

 

[BrocLuno]

Whoa here, the Op asked if anyone does not believe in 0W-20? I said I believe it exists. I believe it is useful for some.

I also said it is not for me. And some folks went off on that. Just for your background. I do not buy cars or trucks with LESS than 100,000 miles. So I do not care on whit about MFG warranties. They do not apply to me. I am my warranty.

I build engines for my cars/trucks and others. Since I am my own engineer and warranty, I decide what is best based on 50 years experience and about a zillion miles under my belt - including over the road trucking.

Toward the end of my career I made my living driving as part of work, off-raod, in the desert in the summer, severe conditions if they were ever defined. And I run boats and motorcycles.

NONE of the vehicles I'm involved with now or in the past have 0W-20 in their owners manuals, or have machine shop recommendations for work I'm doing on engines that includes 0W-20. That's why I say not for me. I'm not dissing the oil. I'm saying it does not fit my fleet.

I have never owned a Japanese car/truck, or a Korean car, or a Mexican car, or even an Italian car although I did lust after a Ferrari once. It's either Detroit, or Europe.

Please do not accuse me of being delusional or ignorant. I've prolly been into a lot more engines than 90% of the posters on BITOG...

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
The irrational part is to think that the Internet hive brain knows more than GM, Ford, or Toyota about what oil is best to run in their vehicles. Who here on BITOG is standing behind their oil recommendation with a 100k powertrain warranty! Sure, anyone is free to experiment and try what they want to, but nobody has one shred of real scientific proof that running something different is better than what is recommended in the owner's manual.



Identical 4.6L engines in my 1996 Lincoln and 2002 Lincoln. Actually, the 2002 has a slightly HIGHER rated hp.

1. 1996 owners manual (and all up to 1999) spec 5w-30.
2. 2000-2002 owners manual spec 5W-20.

Tell me what oil the "Ford brain" is suggesting is best to run in my 4.6L Lincolns. Note that I got 230K miles on my 1997 before it just fell apart. Looks to me like the design engineers were given less input in 2000-2002.

 

[69GTX]

Duplicate post.

 

[KCJeep]

All the usual blather and straw man arguaments from the thin crowd regarding super thick grades and where are the blown engines. Nobody even suggested that.

We are actually discussing the small differences between common 20 and 30 grades and yes there are differences. Yes they are fairly small but this is BITOG where we split gnat hairs. And we are not talking gnat hairs in this case.

If I can potentially get 10-15% more protection for the same money I will take it. We should be more interested in optimum than adequate.

 

[kschachn]

Actually the blather is from the other side, talking about things like "potentially get 10-15% more protection" with nothing at all to substantiate such a claim or statement.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Justin251
Just received a tune to turn off the mds in my ram. I'll try running a 30 weight then for an oci and get a sample tested. Also to see how it affects mpgs.


You will never, ever be able to isolate the effect from the background and environmental effects.