Please elaborate on your "pretty thin" idea. I am dying to hear this story and I bet you think the PYB 20w20 I have 12 quarts left of is thin too eh?
Does anyone not believe in 0w-20?
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Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
So, evidently we can deduce from this that 5w-30 will always be a better choice than 5w-20 or 0w-20 in every application and the latter two only exist as a politically-spawned compromise.
You've pretty much got it.
So, evidently we can deduce from this that 5w-30 will always be a better choice than 5w-20 or 0w-20 in every application and the latter two only exist as a politically-spawned compromise.
You've pretty much got it.
Seriously gang, part of engine oil protection is indeed viscosity.
A good 5w30 (say PYB) has about 14% more viscosity than it's 5w20 twin. Now for arguments sake, let's say that 5w20 and 5w30 PYB were exactly the same viscosity BUT the 5w20 had 14% less additives. Which one would you buy?
I'm just not a big fan of the 20's but I have run them in the past and will run them again, usually winter time though.
A good 5w30 (say PYB) has about 14% more viscosity than it's 5w20 twin. Now for arguments sake, let's say that 5w20 and 5w30 PYB were exactly the same viscosity BUT the 5w20 had 14% less additives. Which one would you buy?
I'm just not a big fan of the 20's but I have run them in the past and will run them again, usually winter time though.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Seriously gang, part of engine oil protection is indeed viscosity.
A good 5w30 (say PYB) has about 14% more viscosity than it's 5w20 twin...
Which is pretty much gone after a couple thousand miles....
Seriously gang, part of engine oil protection is indeed viscosity.
A good 5w30 (say PYB) has about 14% more viscosity than it's 5w20 twin...
Which is pretty much gone after a couple thousand miles....
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
So, evidently we can deduce from this that 5w-30 will always be a better choice than 5w-20 or 0w-20 in every application and the latter two only exist as a politically-spawned compromise.
You've pretty much got it.
That's about it. Today I am using 0w40 or 10w30 in almost everything. I used 5w30 for years but went to 10w30 because of the lower NOACK and the fact that the car never sees temps where 5w30 would be of any real benefit.
Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
So, evidently we can deduce from this that 5w-30 will always be a better choice than 5w-20 or 0w-20 in every application and the latter two only exist as a politically-spawned compromise.
You've pretty much got it.
That's about it. Today I am using 0w40 or 10w30 in almost everything. I used 5w30 for years but went to 10w30 because of the lower NOACK and the fact that the car never sees temps where 5w30 would be of any real benefit.
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Seriously gang, part of engine oil protection is indeed viscosity.
A good 5w30 (say PYB) has about 14% more viscosity than it's 5w20 twin...
Which is pretty much gone after a couple thousand miles....
Which means the 20 grade is down near a 15, if not lower.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Seriously gang, part of engine oil protection is indeed viscosity.
A good 5w30 (say PYB) has about 14% more viscosity than it's 5w20 twin...
Which is pretty much gone after a couple thousand miles....
Which means the 20 grade is down near a 15, if not lower.
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Seriously gang, part of engine oil protection is indeed viscosity.
A good 5w30 (say PYB) has about 14% more viscosity than it's 5w20 twin...
Which is pretty much gone after a couple thousand miles....
Which means the 20 grade is down near a 15, if not lower.
No. It doesn't. It's typically more shear stable...
At over 10,000 miles on OCI, this Ford Hybrid's (similar to what my mother drives) 0W-20 M1EP is not far below where a thinner 5W-30 is:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...P_0#Post4091438
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Seriously gang, part of engine oil protection is indeed viscosity.
A good 5w30 (say PYB) has about 14% more viscosity than it's 5w20 twin...
Which is pretty much gone after a couple thousand miles....
Which means the 20 grade is down near a 15, if not lower.
No. It doesn't. It's typically more shear stable...
At over 10,000 miles on OCI, this Ford Hybrid's (similar to what my mother drives) 0W-20 M1EP is not far below where a thinner 5W-30 is:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...P_0#Post4091438
You are not comparing apples to apples. Yes the 20's shear too, you can't trot out a premier full syn 0w20 and compare it to a typical PYB 5w30, even though in my experience and observation the PYB 5w30 will still be thicker than your EP 0w20 at change time.
Not to mention true thickness is better measured by HTHS which a UOA does not show, and HTHS drops at about half the rate of kv@100.
The gap remains.
Not to mention true thickness is better measured by HTHS which a UOA does not show, and HTHS drops at about half the rate of kv@100.
The gap remains.
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Seriously gang, part of engine oil protection is indeed viscosity.
A good 5w30 (say PYB) has about 14% more viscosity than it's 5w20 twin...
Which is pretty much gone after a couple thousand miles....
Really ?
What then happens to the 20s when THEY shear/dilute ?
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Seriously gang, part of engine oil protection is indeed viscosity.
A good 5w30 (say PYB) has about 14% more viscosity than it's 5w20 twin...
Which is pretty much gone after a couple thousand miles....
Really ?
What then happens to the 20s when THEY shear/dilute ?
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
You are not comparing apples to apples. Yes the 20's shear too, you can't trot out a premier full syn 0w20 and compare it to a typical PYB 5w30, even though in my experience and observation the PYB 5w30 will still be thicker than your EP 0w20 at change time.
Not to mention true thickness is better measured by HTHS which a UOA does not show, and HTHS drops at about half the rate of kv@100.
The gap remains.
bingo...
You are not comparing apples to apples. Yes the 20's shear too, you can't trot out a premier full syn 0w20 and compare it to a typical PYB 5w30, even though in my experience and observation the PYB 5w30 will still be thicker than your EP 0w20 at change time.
Not to mention true thickness is better measured by HTHS which a UOA does not show, and HTHS drops at about half the rate of kv@100.
The gap remains.
bingo...
Nick1994
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While I don't necessarily have a problem with 0w20 oil, I'd probably only use it in a car under warranty. I'd probably step up to a 5w30 outside of warranty.
Many SUVs and trucks that spec 0w20 say a 5w30 can be used if you'll be towing, so they obviously don't have that much confidence in it either.
Many SUVs and trucks that spec 0w20 say a 5w30 can be used if you'll be towing, so they obviously don't have that much confidence in it either.
For shear stability, you prolly want a 20W-20
I recall when ??w-20 grade first began to get lots of air play on BITOG there was a post about GM not recommending anything thinner than a ??w-30 grade in GM engines as would cause issues with the oil pump. This was around 2006/07 era.
GM were slow to bring the ??w-20 range into the fleet.
Ford led the way
GM were slow to bring the ??w-20 range into the fleet.
Ford led the way
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Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
To me, 5W-30 seems pretty thin at store shelf temperatures, so how you came up with your perception is beyond me.
Viscosity is readily quantifiable, so there is absolutely no room for talk like it "seems thin at store shelf temperatures." The most important thing is that in your engine, it's almost exactly the same viscosity as the 10w-30 you use. The 5w-40 I use will be much better in extreme cold than your 10w-30, not to mention thicker at operating temperatures. As for its viscosity on store shelves, I'm not concerned in the least.
To me, 5W-30 seems pretty thin at store shelf temperatures, so how you came up with your perception is beyond me.
Viscosity is readily quantifiable, so there is absolutely no room for talk like it "seems thin at store shelf temperatures." The most important thing is that in your engine, it's almost exactly the same viscosity as the 10w-30 you use. The 5w-40 I use will be much better in extreme cold than your 10w-30, not to mention thicker at operating temperatures. As for its viscosity on store shelves, I'm not concerned in the least.
if i had a car that specced 0w20 i would be very tempted to run a M1 0w30 AFE, mostly because here in Spain 0w20s are not availbale at all at stores, most cars here still spec 5w30 synthetics, as far as i know Ford in Europe now use 5w30 in pretty much everything from the Ecoboost engines to the Dura-Torq 4 pot Diesels
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
While I don't necessarily have a problem with 0w20 oil, I'd probably only use it in a car under warranty. I'd probably step up to a 5w30 outside of warranty.
Many SUVs and trucks that spec 0w20 say a 5w30 can be used if you'll be towing, so they obviously don't have that much confidence in it either.
That makes you wonder doesn't it? Or the change of verbiage in my 08 Liberty owners manual stating that only 5W20 can be used w/o exception. To most recently in the case of my new 2016 Wrangler that you can use either 5W20 or 5W30 if the product meets the mfg. specs. Lots of speculation as to why, but no word from the mfg. as to why. Bottom line is I like the flexibility of being able to make my own choice w/o fear of warranty issues now.
While I don't necessarily have a problem with 0w20 oil, I'd probably only use it in a car under warranty. I'd probably step up to a 5w30 outside of warranty.
Many SUVs and trucks that spec 0w20 say a 5w30 can be used if you'll be towing, so they obviously don't have that much confidence in it either.
That makes you wonder doesn't it? Or the change of verbiage in my 08 Liberty owners manual stating that only 5W20 can be used w/o exception. To most recently in the case of my new 2016 Wrangler that you can use either 5W20 or 5W30 if the product meets the mfg. specs. Lots of speculation as to why, but no word from the mfg. as to why. Bottom line is I like the flexibility of being able to make my own choice w/o fear of warranty issues now.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Seriously gang, part of engine oil protection is indeed viscosity.
A good 5w30 (say PYB) has about 14% more viscosity than it's 5w20 twin...
Which is pretty much gone after a couple thousand miles....
Really ?
What then happens to the 20s when THEY shear/dilute ?
The same thing that happens to any oil that dilutes. They rarely shear significantly in the appropriate engine. If one has a carbonated engine or one that recommends a heavier weight, then never use 0W-20. And if you're having problems like that than the least of your worries is the oil...
But that sort of seems like histrionic hypothetical in modern engines and call for it, and seem to run several hundreds of thousands of miles on it over two decades of use. If you guys lay awake at night worrying that Mobil 1 0W-20 EP, that is around 70% PAO, will blow your Ford up, then don't use it! But don't pretend there is any evidence of junked cars that had premature engine failures due to 0/5W-20. The most recent "newer" car (still under warranty) that had a catastrophic engine failure (that I personally know of) was a VW GTi using approved 5W-40 oils. Is that the oils fault?
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Seriously gang, part of engine oil protection is indeed viscosity.
A good 5w30 (say PYB) has about 14% more viscosity than it's 5w20 twin...
Which is pretty much gone after a couple thousand miles....
Really ?
What then happens to the 20s when THEY shear/dilute ?
The same thing that happens to any oil that dilutes. They rarely shear significantly in the appropriate engine. If one has a carbonated engine or one that recommends a heavier weight, then never use 0W-20. And if you're having problems like that than the least of your worries is the oil...
But that sort of seems like histrionic hypothetical in modern engines and call for it, and seem to run several hundreds of thousands of miles on it over two decades of use. If you guys lay awake at night worrying that Mobil 1 0W-20 EP, that is around 70% PAO, will blow your Ford up, then don't use it! But don't pretend there is any evidence of junked cars that had premature engine failures due to 0/5W-20. The most recent "newer" car (still under warranty) that had a catastrophic engine failure (that I personally know of) was a VW GTi using approved 5W-40 oils. Is that the oils fault?
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
You are not comparing apples to apples. Yes the 20's shear too, you can't trot out a premier full syn 0w20 and compare it to a typical PYB 5w30, even though in my experience and observation the PYB 5w30 will still be thicker than your EP 0w20 at change time.
Not to mention true thickness is better measured by HTHS which a UOA does not show, and HTHS drops at about half the rate of kv@100.
The gap remains.
What "gap?" The hundreds of thousands of Hondas and Fords that have run 0/5W-20 oils that are running 100,000's of miles?
And if the UOA doesn't "show it", how would you know what the HTHS is car-to-car? Especially in a premier synthetic oil?
Personally, I do not run 0W-20 in car because it's not called for, but I do run it in my mom's hybrid, and I ran it in my father's Vulcan engine. Though I do run 5W-30 HM in that now...
You are not comparing apples to apples. Yes the 20's shear too, you can't trot out a premier full syn 0w20 and compare it to a typical PYB 5w30, even though in my experience and observation the PYB 5w30 will still be thicker than your EP 0w20 at change time.
Not to mention true thickness is better measured by HTHS which a UOA does not show, and HTHS drops at about half the rate of kv@100.
The gap remains.
What "gap?" The hundreds of thousands of Hondas and Fords that have run 0/5W-20 oils that are running 100,000's of miles?
And if the UOA doesn't "show it", how would you know what the HTHS is car-to-car? Especially in a premier synthetic oil?
Personally, I do not run 0W-20 in car because it's not called for, but I do run it in my mom's hybrid, and I ran it in my father's Vulcan engine. Though I do run 5W-30 HM in that now...
Originally Posted By: Shannow
What then happens to the 20s when THEY shear/dilute ?
Well if that does happen, it appears that the millions and millions of Fords, Hondas, Toyotas, GM models, Hyundai cars, and everything else that has been running on it for the past 15+ years just keep going fine.
All the hysterics in this thread and every one like it are just flat out unfounded. Surely someone, somewhere on this board would have a bad UOA or a documented failure attributable to -20 oil by now, right?
I mean, just how many years of use and how many miles is it going to take before all these doom and gloom predictions will be apparent? It should be pretty discernible since the US market is a fairly isolated test bed for the grade, at least going by the constant posts about what other countries specify.
What then happens to the 20s when THEY shear/dilute ?
Well if that does happen, it appears that the millions and millions of Fords, Hondas, Toyotas, GM models, Hyundai cars, and everything else that has been running on it for the past 15+ years just keep going fine.
All the hysterics in this thread and every one like it are just flat out unfounded. Surely someone, somewhere on this board would have a bad UOA or a documented failure attributable to -20 oil by now, right?
I mean, just how many years of use and how many miles is it going to take before all these doom and gloom predictions will be apparent? It should be pretty discernible since the US market is a fairly isolated test bed for the grade, at least going by the constant posts about what other countries specify.
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