Dodge Durango 3.6L - second run of HPL 5w-20 - 12,000 miles on oil - filter pictures at 5,000 mile change interval run from 147,000 - 152,000 miles
- Thread starter wwillson
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The carbon you see in my filter is not sludge, instead it's likely carbon being cleaned from the pistons and ring lands.
Why would you recommend I change my OCIs?
That is oil sludge. Seen it a hundred times. If it was carbon from ringlands it would be miniscule. You'd not even see it in one change.
There is absolutely no question that's sludge. It's congealed oil ...the definition of sludge.
You have 16k mile changes.
You have visible sludge.
You have UOA that confirms very high wear metals.
Any "cleaner" that was doing enough to put congealed oil in the filter would be one that you remove immediately after running in the engine at idle or a prescribed rpm.
Any cleaner that did this would also be expressly prohibited by the manual and warranty.
Nobody would make an oil that sludges your oil and filter for thousands of miles.
OVERKILL
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Sludge requires moisture, without moisture, it forms varnish/lacquer, that's the definition of sludge, per this flow chart:
No, he doesn't.
I'm very curious to read your professional interpretation of his UOA's. Would you mind crafting a detailed post on the matter, breaking down each observed trend that's concerning to you?
Hold onto your panties, but I got the same thing in my filters with Mobil 1 0W-40.
This was from a BMW that was pretty ugly under the valve cover, M1 0W-40:
This was from our Expedition, which had no sludge and only very light varnish, engine had been run on dealer bulk 5W-20. Running M1 0W-40 yielded:
It's the result of AN's and esters, which are very effective cleaners. This is the filter from my wife's truck, it had spent its entire life on Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 changed per the OLM, which, unlike the FS 0W-40, was not advertised to provide any cleaning capability. The HEMI is a very dirty running engine and AMSOIL has a TSB about them plugging their EaO filters, so they are not supposed to run extended intervals.
The AN's and esters clean, the DI package makes sure this stuff doesn't agglomerate, staying in suspension, and makes its way to the filter, which is exactly what is, and is supposed to be, happening.
Of course it is sludge.
You just posted that you had the same thing in a bmw that "...was pretty ugly under the valve cover"
So that car was also sludged but the original posters is not?
Again no one would purposefully make an oil that congeals your oil to the point of sludging the filter on purpose.
That's ridiculous.
You think if we contact M1 or HPL and ask if the oil is supposed to be congealed in the filter they're going to say "yes that's part of the design."
This is sludge....
The pictures you posted show sludge as well.
Then you state...
"Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 changed per the OLM, which, unlike the FS 0W-40, was not advertised to provide any cleaning capability. "
This is not correct.
I think you're confused on what sludge is. What's in that filter is not sludge. It's dried solid particles, likely from around the rings. The esters and ANs in that oil is doing what it is designed to do. There is no reason to reduce the OCI here.
This is not dried solid particles...
It's in the process of being dried sludge.
And if there is that much sludge and deposits in the engine after running motor oils it's whole life that claim to "remove sludge in just one oil change" that's pretty telling.
If these long intervals are the cause of sludge, why is the sludge being continually removed by the oil filter?
Now we're getting somewhere.
Exactly.
If this was normal cleaning not only would this not look like sludge but it would be gone in one change.
The original poster has been using oils that literally claim to remove sludge in one change.
There's a reason it keeps showing up.
This is hard carbon that is wet with oil. It is not sludge. Hard carbon feels like grit.
Why would you think the accumulated carbon on the pistons and ring lands would be gone after one oil change?
Have you ever cleaned old pistons before? I have many many times. There's barely enough to fill an 8 oz cup much less sludge multiple oil changes.
There's a problem if you're producing that much deposits after a life of using an oil that claims to clean them up in one change.
Yes I have, in fact I have some in the garage right now that came out of a 7.6L engine. Lots of carbon built up on the lands that polished the bores.
I'll bet you cumulatively the oil filters I've changed out since running HPL have had no more than a couple ounces of carbon.
What does that mean?
Deposits is the correct term, not sludge. Specifically carbon deposits on the pistons and ring lands.
I have clearly stated that for 112,000 miles, I ran 10w-30 HDEO in the summer time and 0w-30 in the winter. Neither of these oils were high in AN or esters, so they had less ability to keep high temperature deposits from forming or loosen them after they formed. However, both oils meet API specs.
We have seen time and time again on this forum that the ANs and esters in HPL oils have the ability to loosen deposits left by other oils.
I've never seen folks excited to see multiple filters full of sludge (or high temperature oil deposits from prior oils as you say... either theory... doesn't really matter).
There seems to be a theory here that your current oil is cleaning up after prior oils so you are now seeing the sludge.
That's a theory though. I run a high ester oil in my pentastar that claims to clean sludge and you see what mine looks like...
The alternative theory is that your car is now producing much more deposits and sludge (can be both).
Have you considered just running bg EPR through the engine and get all the gunk out and go from there?
If you still get filters looking like that after a 20k mile change after that it'll be clear which theory seems to be correct.
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That's great, but your Pentastar is a 2021 with how many miles? How many miles of high speed driving? My Pentastar probably has more miles running across the western US at 80MPH into a headwind locked in 8th gear and foot to the floor, than yours has total. This engine has run at wide open throttle for thousands of miles. Mine is at 153,000 as of today.
My filters used to look exactly like yours, until I started running an oil that was capable of cleaning. I had a nice warm and fuzzy feeling that the inside of my engine was clean, because I was running 0w-30 syn and HDMOs both meeting the latest spec. I was wrong.
I find this to be complete fantasy. We know that HPL oils are extremely robust, but you want me to believe they are producing deposits and sludge AND cleaning them out? I would love to know how that would work.
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I was referring to the OP's filter, not yours.
Well I have a competition license so I may be the wrong person to compare to lol.
I regularly run my Durango at 100mph on cruise control but I don't think those highway conditions are hard on the oil at all. Those are about as good as conditions as one could ask for other than maybe highway miles at 65mph.
Short trips and stop and go are what you want to be mindful of.
I regularly run my Durango at 100mph on cruise control but I don't think those highway conditions are hard on the oil at all. Those are about as good as conditions as one could ask for other than maybe highway miles at 65mph.
Short trips and stop and go are what you want to be mindful of.
Huh?
Heat. Can you imagine the heat rejection from making enough power to 'cruise' at 100 MPH? That's not easy on oil, it's not easy on anything.
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@wwillson
Excuse me if you posted this elsewhere but besides cleaning the engine, what else has HPL brought you?
Have you noticed any other attributes- benefits of the oil that would make a guy using top spec. Euro Oil now switch to HPL? HPL euro in a 5 gallon pail shipped figures about $14.75 a quart when all said and done.
Thanks.
Excuse me if you posted this elsewhere but besides cleaning the engine, what else has HPL brought you?
Have you noticed any other attributes- benefits of the oil that would make a guy using top spec. Euro Oil now switch to HPL? HPL euro in a 5 gallon pail shipped figures about $14.75 a quart when all said and done.
Thanks.
Competition license is a competition racing license.
My oil temps are lower cruising at 100mph than they are sitting in traffic.
The heat exchangers work great at that speed.
Now my track car running 175mph on the back straights immediately followed immediately by low speed turns yes I see elevated oil temps in the 230s.
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