Dodge Durango 3.6L - second run of HPL 5w-20 - 12,000 miles on oil - filter pictures at 5,000 mile change interval run from 147,000 - 152,000 miles

No, about 195°F


I think it's 2150, but close enough.

The hottest I ever saw the oil temperature was with the throttle at zero. How? About 8 years ago, I was using the engine as a brake while descending one of the steep grades on I-70 west of Denver. I held the engine RPMs at about 4,000 for several minutes and watched the oil temp climb to 239°F. All the heat was from friction, imagine how hot the ring/piston/bore interfaces were. Maybe that's when I picked up the coked ring lands? The hottest I've ever seen the engine oil temp while running at full throttle and about 3,000 RPMs was 218°F while ascending one of the steep grades on I-70 west of Denver.

Not bad really.

I really think it'd be worthwhile to run BG EPR through it and that should conceivably be the end of it.
 
Pretty fascinating to see what people are seeing after running HPL. I am curious as well where it comes from. I am not entirely convinced it is from the rings though. Exceptional cleaning going on. Could just be a dirty engine. That engine is known for that.

Even the engines Mobil ran to 20k+ miles were immaculate inside. That would leave the piston rings as a source of carbon in some of these engines. But what is showing up doesn't look like it would be from the rings IMO.

FWIW, AN's won't show large spikes in abs/cm like esters do. Also, it is only the new Triple Action that states cleaning power. Prior EP versions did not, and I don't think the last version of M1 EP had that level of solvency. That was limited to the ESP and 0w40 oils which showed a virgin oxidation reading of 36-39 abs/cm, due to the presence of some type of ester.

This was the rating of the Mobil 1 Triple ran 20k+ miles in several vehicles.

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I am curious as well where it comes from.
You make a good point. The fact is we don't know exactly where the deposits are coming from, only that they are coming from the inside of the engine. It does make sense that they are being removed from the hottest lubricated part of the engine, which are the pistons and rings, but as @JHZR2 pointed out earlier, we don't know with certainty. If this was a 1970 small block chevy, I would just pull piston out and see, but there is a lot of time involved in just taking the head off of one of these.
 
Also, it is only the new Triple Action that states cleaning power. Prior EP versions did not, and I don't think the last version of M1 EP had that level of solvency.
I used archive.org and went back to 2020 and the "sludge removal" claim for the EP 0W-20 was still there, which pre-dates the triple action formula. The FS 0W-40 has always used the broader "exceptional cleaning power" claim.
 
Isn't the 3.6L a dirty running engine like the Hemi? That could explain it. 🤷‍♂️
 
Isn't the 3.6L a dirty running engine like the Hemi? That could explain it. 🤷‍♂️
Not that I know of. The HEMI is due to its chamber design, and huge bores (particularly on the 6.4L), but the Pentastar is a pretty typical DOHC mill with a pent-roof chamber design, which tend to be very clean.
 
But I assume since you posted about the thread that shows all these studies that conflict you can link me please so I can post a full lit review. And can explain what FMEP relates to friction and wear in studies. Friction is bad for wear to simplify

I apologize I did not. I found one thread with a study that didn't even include a study of cold start.


Then this one wear the only poster who bothered to post test results instead of opinion was post 17 showing more wear at startup.



But I assume since you posted about the thread that shows all these studies that conflict you can link me please so I can post a full lit review. And can explain what FMEP relates to friction and wear in studies. Friction is bad for wear to simplify

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Bought a car off a bloke who took the thermostat out...cylinder ridge and valve guide wear was ridiculous.

Shouldn't mistake corroisive "wear" at very low temperatures with wear per se.

At cold start, the FMEP is high, as the oil is at it's most viscous, and causing drag...parts separation is at it's highest, meaning contact to contact is small.

When hot, the oil film is thinnest, but the triboactive additives are in full swing, and many parts are performing in the absence of full hydrodynamic lubrication, completely protected by the tribofilms.

The most wear in in the middle, as the engine is warming, and before the additives are fully functional. Which is the reason that the Sequence IVA wear test is performed at the sweet spot, between hydrodynamic and additive wear control.

Most "wear" occurs during warmup.
 
Bought a car off a bloke who took the thermostat out...cylinder ridge and valve guide wear was ridiculous.

Shouldn't mistake corroisive "wear" at very low temperatures with wear per se.

At cold start, the FMEP is high, as the oil is at it's most viscous, and causing drag...parts separation is at it's highest, meaning contact to contact is small.

When hot, the oil film is thinnest, but the triboactive additives are in full swing, and many parts are performing in the absence of full hydrodynamic lubrication, completely protected by the tribofilms.

The most wear in in the middle, as the engine is warming, and before the additives are fully functional. Which is the reason that the Sequence IVA wear test is performed at the sweet spot, between hydrodynamic and additive wear control.

Most "wear" occurs during warmup.

Since the other person was not able could you kindly link me to the thread or a single study that states this regarding cold start?

As I said I'm happy to post the peer reviewed papers showing most wear occurs from cold start to operating temp is the correct answer. Yes that includes during warm up as you stated..

Every study on cylinder wear and ring wear im aware of confirms this.

If you'll look at this wear study you'll see down at 40f it highest. I don't even see those cold of temps on cold start in Florida ever.

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Please link me to any thread or study so I can help clarify this misinformation as it relates to cold start.

Thank you kindly
 
The hottest I ever saw the oil temperature was with the throttle at zero. How? About 8 years ago, I was using the engine as a brake while descending one of the steep grades on I-70 west of Denver. I held the engine RPMs at about 4,000 for several minutes and watched the oil temp climb to 239°F. All the heat was from friction, imagine how hot the ring/piston/bore interfaces were. Maybe that's when I picked up the coked ring lands? The hottest I've ever seen the engine oil temp while running at full throttle and about 3,000 RPMs was 218°F while ascending one of the steep grades on I-70 west of Denver.

Demonstrated amply well in my Caprice (L67 supercharged 3.8). in 15 minutes at 100km/h in "D", a type K thermocouple down the dipstick reads 100-105...extend that by another 15 minutes and it's still 105C. Hold it in "2", 4,000RPM for exactly the same road speed/load, and in that 15 mins from cold, it will read 135C. No idea what the local viscosity is in the big ends (they will be hotter for sure), and quite sure that 10 mins every now and then for this type of experiment isn't consuming huge amounts of engine life...
 
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Please link me to any thread or study so I can help clarify this misinformation as it relates to cold start.

Thank you kindly

2、Control of machine temperature



The corrosion and wear of the cylinder liner depends largely on the working temperature of the diesel engine. Tests show that when the coolant temperature drops to 40-50 ℃, the cylinder liner wear will be 5-6 times the normal wear, and mainly corrosion wear, so keep the cooling system working temperature does not exceed 90 ℃, will greatly limit the sulfur vapor condensation on the cylinder liner wall, so as to reduce the purpose of corrosion.

And miraculously close to the temperatures chosen for the Industry standard Sequence IVA Camshaft wear test.

Talking personally to an ex Castrol Engineer, who developed the Magnatec range in Australia, that temperature space, after the oil starts thinning, and before the additives are active is precisely why the temperature was chosen, and Magnatec developed.


Member BobbyDavro has stated that he has performed this test both at lower and higher temperatures, and this truly is the sweet spot for wear.
 



And miraculously close to the temperatures chosen for the Industry standard Sequence IVA Camshaft wear test.

Talking personally to an ex Castrol Engineer, who developed the Magnatec range in Australia, that temperature space, after the oil starts thinning, and before the additives are active is precisely why the temperature was chosen, and Magnatec developed.


Member BobbyDavro has stated that he has performed this test both at lower and higher temperatures, and this truly is the sweet spot for wear.

I asked for a study on cold start. You sent me to a LindledIn page. Again no linking to an article.

Odd no one has yet to link me to one. I'll link to them to help.


Now the one you linked shows the most wear at 40c degrees. It didn't test lower. Thats actually cold start for me in Florida btw

How about that!


But yes all these articles agree with yours. Cold start all the way to operating temperature is the worst wear.

Glad we could clarify this misinformation that's been going on







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Knowing the solvency built into HPL oils due to the select esters/AN's, the oils cleaning ability is probably doing its job along with the additive package keeping carbon-based material in suspension. This should settle over time. My backyard chemist guess. 🤪
 
Shooo weeee

This thread got exciting 🤪

I'm about 3000 miles into my first HPL run. Going to change the filter at 5000. The oil is certainly more dark at this point than I've ever seen in this truck.

I'm glad I cut the filter on my last 10k run of Pennzoil Platinum for comparison.
 
If you can't find something, it's not because it's not there, you just don't have the capability.
I find BITOG is best searched with things like...

warm up Shannow site:https://bobistheoilguy.com

Which gives results such as...


Apologies, the images were hosted on Photobucket.

Oh and...again, not great without pics, but detail on bearings themselves.
(Qualified Mechanical enginer, 34 year in the power industry, including over a decade as a turbine engineer, which included bearing design and modification at various stages).
 
If you can't find something, it's not because it's not there, you just don't have the capability.
I find BITOG is best searched with things like...

warm up Shannow site:https://bobistheoilguy.com

Which gives results such as...


Apologies, the images were hosted on Photobucket.

Oh and...again, not great without pics, but detail on bearings themselves.
(Qualified Mechanical enginer, 34 year in the power industry, including over a decade as a turbine engineer, which included bearing design and modification at various stages).


??? You linked me to forum posts.... neither a study of cold start.

As a scientist (not that my personal background would matter whatsoever which is why I have never mentioned it) I don't seek out scientific research from forum posts and LinkedIn. These are not acceptable sources of scientific data.

We go to peer reviewed journals.

I showed you all links to scientific articles in peer reviewed journals. I didn't link you to stuff like this ...



Because although it agrees with all the peer reviewed scientific studies it was not a published one itself.

Are you able to point me to any studies that show most wear doesn't occur from cold start and just prior to operating temp?

The ones you linked to don't say anything to refute that at all

I'd urge you to read the actual peer-reviewed scientific literature on this...







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Apologies ...

No worries it's just that you linked me to three different threads that were all locked and had nothing of what we were discussing in it which was any studies on cold start.

If you're able to find any threads or any studies that actually do discuss cold start and that art locked please do let me know.
 
No worries it's just that you linked me to three different threads that were all locked and had nothing of what we were discussing in it which was any studies on cold start.

If you're able to find any threads or any studies that actually do discuss cold start and that art locked please do let me know.
In case you don’t know, threads are auto locked due to lack of activity. Not sure the age but it’s a couple years or so. Doesn’t change any potential relevance.
 
In case you don’t know, threads are auto locked due to lack of activity. Not sure the age but it’s a couple years or so. Doesn’t change any potential relevance.

Yes and none of the post had any studies on cold start.

Do you have any to share like the ones that I have shared?
 

1960-01-01

STARTUP WEAR IN AUTOMOBILE ENGINES 600190​

Studies in laboratory engines equipped with radioactive piston rings show that wear is highest during a cold startup. Corrosion by condensed combustion products is responsible.
Engine operating variables and additives in fuels and motor oils influence corrosion and, therefore, startup wear. Long shutdown periods, low engine temperature, and high intake-air humidity increase wear. In fuels, antirusts offer some control; for example, an amine dialkyl phosphate eliminates 40% of the wear. In motor oils, detergents are the most helpful ingredients; barium salts of organo-phosphorus compounds or sulfonate-phenates lower wear 30%. But, taken together, antirust in the fuel and detergent in the motor oil do not reinforce each other.
Ample room remains for further improvement. Strong polar compounds that chemisorb and form tenacious protective films on metal surfaces do the best job. Particularly valuable would be fuel additives and motor-oil additives that work better together.
 
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