Not bad really.
I really think it'd be worthwhile to run BG EPR through it and that should conceivably be the end of it.
Dodge Durango 3.6L - second run of HPL 5w-20 - 12,000 miles on oil - filter pictures at 5,000 mile change interval run from 147,000 - 152,000 miles
- Thread starter wwillson
- Start date
Not bad really.
I really think it'd be worthwhile to run BG EPR through it and that should conceivably be the end of it.
Pretty fascinating to see what people are seeing after running HPL. I am curious as well where it comes from. I am not entirely convinced it is from the rings though. Exceptional cleaning going on. Could just be a dirty engine. That engine is known for that.
Even the engines Mobil ran to 20k+ miles were immaculate inside. That would leave the piston rings as a source of carbon in some of these engines. But what is showing up doesn't look like it would be from the rings IMO.
FWIW, AN's won't show large spikes in abs/cm like esters do. Also, it is only the new Triple Action that states cleaning power. Prior EP versions did not, and I don't think the last version of M1 EP had that level of solvency. That was limited to the ESP and 0w40 oils which showed a virgin oxidation reading of 36-39 abs/cm, due to the presence of some type of ester.
This was the rating of the Mobil 1 Triple ran 20k+ miles in several vehicles.
Even the engines Mobil ran to 20k+ miles were immaculate inside. That would leave the piston rings as a source of carbon in some of these engines. But what is showing up doesn't look like it would be from the rings IMO.
FWIW, AN's won't show large spikes in abs/cm like esters do. Also, it is only the new Triple Action that states cleaning power. Prior EP versions did not, and I don't think the last version of M1 EP had that level of solvency. That was limited to the ESP and 0w40 oils which showed a virgin oxidation reading of 36-39 abs/cm, due to the presence of some type of ester.
This was the rating of the Mobil 1 Triple ran 20k+ miles in several vehicles.
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You make a good point. The fact is we don't know exactly where the deposits are coming from, only that they are coming from the inside of the engine. It does make sense that they are being removed from the hottest lubricated part of the engine, which are the pistons and rings, but as @JHZR2 pointed out earlier, we don't know with certainty. If this was a 1970 small block chevy, I would just pull piston out and see, but there is a lot of time involved in just taking the head off of one of these.
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I used archive.org and went back to 2020 and the "sludge removal" claim for the EP 0W-20 was still there, which pre-dates the triple action formula. The FS 0W-40 has always used the broader "exceptional cleaning power" claim.
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Not that I know of. The HEMI is due to its chamber design, and huge bores (particularly on the 6.4L), but the Pentastar is a pretty typical DOHC mill with a pent-roof chamber design, which tend to be very clean.Isn't the 3.6L a dirty running engine like the Hemi? That could explain it.
Bought a car off a bloke who took the thermostat out...cylinder ridge and valve guide wear was ridiculous.
Shouldn't mistake corroisive "wear" at very low temperatures with wear per se.
At cold start, the FMEP is high, as the oil is at it's most viscous, and causing drag...parts separation is at it's highest, meaning contact to contact is small.
When hot, the oil film is thinnest, but the triboactive additives are in full swing, and many parts are performing in the absence of full hydrodynamic lubrication, completely protected by the tribofilms.
The most wear in in the middle, as the engine is warming, and before the additives are fully functional. Which is the reason that the Sequence IVA wear test is performed at the sweet spot, between hydrodynamic and additive wear control.
Most "wear" occurs during warmup.
Since the other person was not able could you kindly link me to the thread or a single study that states this regarding cold start?
As I said I'm happy to post the peer reviewed papers showing most wear occurs from cold start to operating temp is the correct answer. Yes that includes during warm up as you stated..
Every study on cylinder wear and ring wear im aware of confirms this.
If you'll look at this wear study you'll see down at 40f it highest. I don't even see those cold of temps on cold start in Florida ever.
Please link me to any thread or study so I can help clarify this misinformation as it relates to cold start.
Thank you kindly
Demonstrated amply well in my Caprice (L67 supercharged 3.8). in 15 minutes at 100km/h in "D", a type K thermocouple down the dipstick reads 100-105...extend that by another 15 minutes and it's still 105C. Hold it in "2", 4,000RPM for exactly the same road speed/load, and in that 15 mins from cold, it will read 135C. No idea what the local viscosity is in the big ends (they will be hotter for sure), and quite sure that 10 mins every now and then for this type of experiment isn't consuming huge amounts of engine life...
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Improve the service life of diesel engine cylinder liner six magic words, one cannot be missing!
1, correct maintenance and maintenance of the air filter system The failure of air filter system will form the wear of cylinder liner, so that the life of cylinder liner is greatly reduced, so there are high requirements for air filter, use multi-stage high efficiency air filter. Check and clean the
www.linkedin.com
And miraculously close to the temperatures chosen for the Industry standard Sequence IVA Camshaft wear test.
Talking personally to an ex Castrol Engineer, who developed the Magnatec range in Australia, that temperature space, after the oil starts thinning, and before the additives are active is precisely why the temperature was chosen, and Magnatec developed.
Member BobbyDavro has stated that he has performed this test both at lower and higher temperatures, and this truly is the sweet spot for wear.
Improve the service life of diesel engine cylinder liner six magic words, one cannot be missing!
1, correct maintenance and maintenance of the air filter system The failure of air filter system will form the wear of cylinder liner, so that the life of cylinder liner is greatly reduced, so there are high requirements for air filter, use multi-stage high efficiency air filter. Check and clean the
And miraculously close to the temperatures chosen for the Industry standard Sequence IVA Camshaft wear test.
Talking personally to an ex Castrol Engineer, who developed the Magnatec range in Australia, that temperature space, after the oil starts thinning, and before the additives are active is precisely why the temperature was chosen, and Magnatec developed.
Member BobbyDavro has stated that he has performed this test both at lower and higher temperatures, and this truly is the sweet spot for wear.
I asked for a study on cold start. You sent me to a LindledIn page. Again no linking to an article.
Odd no one has yet to link me to one. I'll link to them to help.
Now the one you linked shows the most wear at 40c degrees. It didn't test lower. Thats actually cold start for me in Florida btw
How about that!
But yes all these articles agree with yours. Cold start all the way to operating temperature is the worst wear.
Glad we could clarify this misinformation that's been going on
Effect of Break-In and Operating Conditions on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in Spark-Ignition Engines on JSTOR
Eric W. Schneider, Daniel H. Blossfeld, Effect of Break-In and Operating Conditions on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in Spark-Ignition Engines, SAE Transactions, Vol. 113, Section 3: JOURNAL OF ENGINES (2004), pp. 1357-1369
www.jstor.org
Cold Start Wear Performance in Methanol and Gasoline Engines
Rapid engine wear is one of the most serious problems associated in the commercial exploitation of carburetted, straight methanol spark ignited engines. The existing lubricants are reported to be deficient in the control of cylinder bore and piston ring wear. Whereas, extensive efforts have been m
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Knowing the solvency built into HPL oils due to the select esters/AN's, the oils cleaning ability is probably doing its job along with the additive package keeping carbon-based material in suspension. This should settle over time. My backyard chemist guess. 
Shooo weeee
This thread got exciting
I'm about 3000 miles into my first HPL run. Going to change the filter at 5000. The oil is certainly more dark at this point than I've ever seen in this truck.
I'm glad I cut the filter on my last 10k run of Pennzoil Platinum for comparison.
This thread got exciting
I'm about 3000 miles into my first HPL run. Going to change the filter at 5000. The oil is certainly more dark at this point than I've ever seen in this truck.
I'm glad I cut the filter on my last 10k run of Pennzoil Platinum for comparison.
If you can't find something, it's not because it's not there, you just don't have the capability.
I find BITOG is best searched with things like...
warm up Shannow site:https://bobistheoilguy.com
Which gives results such as...
Apologies, the images were hosted on Photobucket.
Oh and...again, not great without pics, but detail on bearings themselves.
(Qualified Mechanical enginer, 34 year in the power industry, including over a decade as a turbine engineer, which included bearing design and modification at various stages).
I find BITOG is best searched with things like...
warm up Shannow site:https://bobistheoilguy.com
Which gives results such as...
Engine Warm-Up Discussion.
Thought I might modify a few Stribeck curves to demonstrate what happens to engines when running cold, with cold oil. For reference, hydrodynamic lubrication is where a lubricant, the load, and the relative motion produce sufficient separation forces to keep the parts away from each...
bobistheoilguy.com
Engine Oil Viscosity - wasted energy during warmup
Couple of facts that people seem to have a hard time getting across lately, pertaining to warm-up, oil temperatures, and why OEMs are switching to lighter viscosities, and the Japanese penchant for higher VIs. Here's a map of the energy input into heating the oil in the first minutes after...
bobistheoilguy.com
Apologies, the images were hosted on Photobucket.
Oh and...again, not great without pics, but detail on bearings themselves.
Bearings...how they work.
In another thread, Trav posted Originally Posted By: Trav Shannow, is there any correlation between a cast crank and lightly reinforced block that are subject to flexing and this.. Quote: Hydrodynamic journal bearings become unstable with small shaft eccentricity. It's the reason that high...
bobistheoilguy.com
??? You linked me to forum posts.... neither a study of cold start.
As a scientist (not that my personal background would matter whatsoever which is why I have never mentioned it) I don't seek out scientific research from forum posts and LinkedIn. These are not acceptable sources of scientific data.
We go to peer reviewed journals.
I showed you all links to scientific articles in peer reviewed journals. I didn't link you to stuff like this ...
Superior Cold-Start Engine Protection? - AMSOIL Blog
AMSOIL Signature Series provides superior cold temperature viscosity, which improves wear protection for engine components during cold starts.
www.google.com
Because although it agrees with all the peer reviewed scientific studies it was not a published one itself.
Are you able to point me to any studies that show most wear doesn't occur from cold start and just prior to operating temp?
The ones you linked to don't say anything to refute that at all
I'd urge you to read the actual peer-reviewed scientific literature on this...
Effect of Break-In and Operating Conditions on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in Spark-Ignition Engines on JSTOR
Eric W. Schneider, Daniel H. Blossfeld, Effect of Break-In and Operating Conditions on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in Spark-Ignition Engines, SAE Transactions, Vol. 113, Section 3: JOURNAL OF ENGINES (2004), pp. 1357-1369
www.jstor.org
Cold Start Wear Performance in Methanol and Gasoline Engines
Rapid engine wear is one of the most serious problems associated in the commercial exploitation of carburetted, straight methanol spark ignited engines. The existing lubricants are reported to be deficient in the control of cylinder bore and piston ring wear. Whereas, extensive efforts have been m
Apologies ...
No worries it's just that you linked me to three different threads that were all locked and had nothing of what we were discussing in it which was any studies on cold start.
If you're able to find any threads or any studies that actually do discuss cold start and that art locked please do let me know.
In case you don’t know, threads are auto locked due to lack of activity. Not sure the age but it’s a couple years or so. Doesn’t change any potential relevance.
Yes and none of the post had any studies on cold start.
Do you have any to share like the ones that I have shared?
STARTUP WEAR IN AUTOMOBILE ENGINES
Studies in laboratory engines equipped with radioactive piston rings show that wear is highest during a cold startup. Corrosion by condensed combustion products is responsible.Engine operating variables and additives in fuels and motor oils influence corrosion and, therefore, startup wear. Long shut
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