Do you really need any thicker than 0W-20?
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I have to say that this was a very pleasant viscosity debate! Seems to me the point is pretty much settled that there are no blanket statements that cover the viscosity question. It's all according to the details.
One of the things I don't understand is the issue of viscosity and timing chains. I had always thought chain durability was more an issue of additives than viscosity (within the realm of "normal" viscosities, e.g. 20 vs 30 grade). Can anyone provide some explanation or study materials on that aspect?
One of the things I don't understand is the issue of viscosity and timing chains. I had always thought chain durability was more an issue of additives than viscosity (within the realm of "normal" viscosities, e.g. 20 vs 30 grade). Can anyone provide some explanation or study materials on that aspect?
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 249,000 M
I think he was trying to improve a UOA on a 28 yr old car. Thats somewhat old and its a Corolla.....hmmmm...............It cant be under to much of a load, is this a project auto?
I think he was trying to improve a UOA on a 28 yr old car. Thats somewhat old and its a Corolla.....hmmmm...............It cant be under to much of a load, is this a project auto?
FoxS, our ST oils are from a different supplier (recycled kind of like NextGen and have been for years, and probably why we have no ST syn or HM). That supplier is also relatively large in supplying fleets, so they thrive on 5 gallon pails, so it's no skin off their nose to drop a few pallets off at Walmart for sale. So, I can buy a 5w-20 SN/GF-5 (or any other grade) in a 5 gallon pail, but we all know how that would fly if I asked for PYB in a 5 gallon pail. That's why I'm always surprised when I hear stories from south of the border how Mobil Super/MC/GTX/PYB or whatever is "overpriced" at Walmart in relation to the other brands. At our WM, barring rollbacks, they're priced identically except for two exceptions - the ST and Valvoline NextGen, which is a buck or two cheaper per jug. GTX is a strange one, too, since if you actually pay the regular ~$25 sticker price on it up here, you're nuts. It's always rolled back at either CT or Walmart. I haven't seen it solely at regular price for well over a year.
Synthetic is a tiny bit different. PP and QSUD tend to be about the same at regular price. Regular M1 is higher, and regular Syntec is in between. Synpower is an oddball because WM does weird things with its pricing, like having it on "closeout" at around $45 (like the Edge with Titanium I mentioned at $13.88 a litre). When there are sales on synthetic, Synpower and NAPA syn are the cheapest by a wide margin (under $20 a jug on occasion), with PP and QSUD hitting that mark on rare occasions. M1 and Syntec, not so much. If you get M1 for south of $30, you grab it. Then again, it is easier to find better "regular" prices on M1 elsewhere, simply because of market penetration.
And that's retail for you, and why I'm always cautious with comparing prices. Up here, for the record, Walmart is one of the worst places to buy oil when it's not on special. Even the independents will spank them by a significant margin, let alone a proper distributor.
Synthetic is a tiny bit different. PP and QSUD tend to be about the same at regular price. Regular M1 is higher, and regular Syntec is in between. Synpower is an oddball because WM does weird things with its pricing, like having it on "closeout" at around $45 (like the Edge with Titanium I mentioned at $13.88 a litre). When there are sales on synthetic, Synpower and NAPA syn are the cheapest by a wide margin (under $20 a jug on occasion), with PP and QSUD hitting that mark on rare occasions. M1 and Syntec, not so much. If you get M1 for south of $30, you grab it. Then again, it is easier to find better "regular" prices on M1 elsewhere, simply because of market penetration.
And that's retail for you, and why I'm always cautious with comparing prices. Up here, for the record, Walmart is one of the worst places to buy oil when it's not on special. Even the independents will spank them by a significant margin, let alone a proper distributor.
The characteristics of my engine and usage require thicker oil than 0w-20.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
One of the things I don't understand is the issue of viscosity and timing chains. I had always thought chain durability was more an issue of additives than viscosity (within the realm of "normal" viscosities, e.g. 20 vs 30 grade). Can anyone provide some explanation or study materials on that aspect?
Would like to know more about longterm protection of timing chains as well.
One of the things I don't understand is the issue of viscosity and timing chains. I had always thought chain durability was more an issue of additives than viscosity (within the realm of "normal" viscosities, e.g. 20 vs 30 grade). Can anyone provide some explanation or study materials on that aspect?
Would like to know more about longterm protection of timing chains as well.
This is truly a great discussion! I miss these types of conversations on here. I think the moral of the story is this, if a manual recommends an oil weight for your vehicle, that weight will provide adequate protection for the intended purpose of the vehicle. I say intended use because a Camry driver is not expected to go to the drag strip, if they did then the 0w20 probably would no longer be suitable.
I think ford displayed this perfectly. Mustang GT specs 5w20, GT with Track Pack requires 5w50. Ford expects the use of the GT with Track Pack to be used on the track, therefore they spec a more robust oil. The GT which is expected to be used as a daily driver with occasional WOT bursts can handle the 5w20. Interesting to say the least.
I think ford displayed this perfectly. Mustang GT specs 5w20, GT with Track Pack requires 5w50. Ford expects the use of the GT with Track Pack to be used on the track, therefore they spec a more robust oil. The GT which is expected to be used as a daily driver with occasional WOT bursts can handle the 5w20. Interesting to say the least.
Hi Jim, my concern with blanket viscosity statements and timing chains is in regard to their tensioning systems. What specifically came to my mind, is the AMC/Jeep designed inline 4 and 6 cylinders. I have experimented with many types of viscosities in the modified 2.5L in my trail Jeep and have found that a 30wt(currently 5W30) produces acceptable iron (in a design known for shedding) while providing less drag and more usable power. I have always felt that the iron in this design comes from the chain dragging over it's slide. This can be worse in the unbalanced 4 cylinder compared to the 6. SAE30 and 10W40 viscosity lubricants have shown single digit wear numbers over the course of a season, but with a slight penalty in drag. This is probably not as apparent with the higher output 6 cylinders.
While Caterham's OP/OT guidelines will probably work for most engines out there, there could be a design that simply requires a higher viscosity lube for other aspects of the engine besides the bearings. For example, earlier Jeep engines (Willys/Kaiser) used timing gears and running a 20wt would concern me, even if pressure is acceptable.
Overall, I have been nothing but impressed with modern 20wts and have full confidence using them in my toy hauler (Ford). I can't agree however, that one can simply use OP/OT ONLY to determine if the lubricant is acceptable. The shock loading Trav discussed is a great example why. The overall design including cooling and induction systems has to be taken into consideration. Gary's experiments with 0W10 in his 2.5L was awesome and hinted at where future lubricants are going, but IMO iron was still elevated (although "acceptable") and it had a VERY robust add pack. I wish I had the opportunity to try it!
Slightly off topic - despite the trend of my peers to swap out the "turdly" 2.5L in favor of a V6 or V8 power plant, I have chosen to continue running the lowly 2.5L and see where I can take it. My current 2.5L mill produces 145 HP. I'm currently building a whacky 2.5L that will be shoehorned into a small buggy chassis. The cam profile will enable 6000 RPM using a custom cam and cryo'd rods. I anticipate running a 42"+/- tire size on either Unimog 404 axles or cheaper 1 ton domestic. I would love to try a 0W20 in this engine to obtain maximum power, but would need to monitor the oil condition closely.
While Caterham's OP/OT guidelines will probably work for most engines out there, there could be a design that simply requires a higher viscosity lube for other aspects of the engine besides the bearings. For example, earlier Jeep engines (Willys/Kaiser) used timing gears and running a 20wt would concern me, even if pressure is acceptable.
Overall, I have been nothing but impressed with modern 20wts and have full confidence using them in my toy hauler (Ford). I can't agree however, that one can simply use OP/OT ONLY to determine if the lubricant is acceptable. The shock loading Trav discussed is a great example why. The overall design including cooling and induction systems has to be taken into consideration. Gary's experiments with 0W10 in his 2.5L was awesome and hinted at where future lubricants are going, but IMO iron was still elevated (although "acceptable") and it had a VERY robust add pack. I wish I had the opportunity to try it!
Slightly off topic - despite the trend of my peers to swap out the "turdly" 2.5L in favor of a V6 or V8 power plant, I have chosen to continue running the lowly 2.5L and see where I can take it. My current 2.5L mill produces 145 HP. I'm currently building a whacky 2.5L that will be shoehorned into a small buggy chassis. The cam profile will enable 6000 RPM using a custom cam and cryo'd rods. I anticipate running a 42"+/- tire size on either Unimog 404 axles or cheaper 1 ton domestic. I would love to try a 0W20 in this engine to obtain maximum power, but would need to monitor the oil condition closely.
Just to add - I don't have time to find the info, but believe there were viscosity concerns in regard to Toyota 20/22R timing chain longevity. I think there was an SAE paper on it, but when I checked it required a fee to purchase it.
BTW, I also concur that this has been an outstanding discussion!
My comments/opinions are also not scientific in any way(well, maybe a little) and are made based on my lowly experience.
BTW, I also concur that this has been an outstanding discussion!
My comments/opinions are also not scientific in any way(well, maybe a little) and are made based on my lowly experience.
Note that in my UOA there is a concern with chromium, which could be due to ring wear. However, apparently the amount of chromium in a ring is no more than 19% in the extreme case and at least about 80% is the iron. Therefore, if this chromium was coming from the rings, 22 ppm iron would have to come from the rings alone for the 5 ppm chromium. I only have 16 ppm iron. Therefore, it makes no sense that all the chromium is coming from ring wear, as there are also other sources of iron in the UOA.
I do suspect the source of chromium and sodium in my UOA is contamination from the plating of a tin can (and soap I used to clean it) I used for sampling.
It would also be good to do a UOA with a 15W-40 to see how it would compare. As I said before, there is so little viscosity difference between Toyota 0W-20 SN and an xW-30, especially considering that 0W-20 would run cooler due to less hydrodynamic friction and better flow, that I don't expect much difference between them.
I do suspect the source of chromium and sodium in my UOA is contamination from the plating of a tin can (and soap I used to clean it) I used for sampling.
It would also be good to do a UOA with a 15W-40 to see how it would compare. As I said before, there is so little viscosity difference between Toyota 0W-20 SN and an xW-30, especially considering that 0W-20 would run cooler due to less hydrodynamic friction and better flow, that I don't expect much difference between them.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Toyota oil that is subsidized by them and not a true price representation of synth oils
Toyota Genuine Motor Oil is not subsidized by Toyota or ExxonMobil. ExxonMobil sells it directly to the Toyota dealers for the most part. The reason why the price is low is that there is no advertising cost for it and there is no middle dealer. On the other hand, if you buy Mobil 1, about half of what you pay is going toward ads.
Toyota oil that is subsidized by them and not a true price representation of synth oils
Toyota Genuine Motor Oil is not subsidized by Toyota or ExxonMobil. ExxonMobil sells it directly to the Toyota dealers for the most part. The reason why the price is low is that there is no advertising cost for it and there is no middle dealer. On the other hand, if you buy Mobil 1, about half of what you pay is going toward ads.
Originally Posted By: 147_Grain
Would like to know more about longterm protection of timing chains as well.
Yes, you and Jim are onto something. I had always been under the impression that a decent anti-wear package would help timing chains and that, of course, timing chains could be hard on oil, particularly with respect to shear.
@RamFan: The way my buddy drives his GT500 with the Track Pack, I'm sure he could use 0w-20.
Would like to know more about longterm protection of timing chains as well.
Yes, you and Jim are onto something. I had always been under the impression that a decent anti-wear package would help timing chains and that, of course, timing chains could be hard on oil, particularly with respect to shear.
@RamFan: The way my buddy drives his GT500 with the Track Pack, I'm sure he could use 0w-20.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
Saying that you can't run a 2.6cP 20wt oil (or even something lighter) in an engine implies that you can't maintain adequate OP. Because if you can maintain the previously established safe minimum OP then by definition you are maintaining an adequate operational oil viscosity
That makes the assumption that a 2.6 cP oil is enough to protect a high HP/output engine under all conditions it might encounter.
The Europeans don't seem to have much faith in this theory, most of their oil for these engines are HTHS 3.5+.
You can say i am over thinking this but i would say you are under estimating the importance of HTHS and block/crank rigidity and the boundary film offered by higher HTHS oils in engines that by design require it.
Marine engines are a perfect example of the necessity of stiff blocks and bottom end.
GM in this case has gone to great lengths to stiffen the bottom end.
http://gmpowertrain.com/2013_pdf/FHR_REV_6.0_Marine_010713.pdf
My question to you is why do they bother going to 6 bolt mains and super stiff block if the most relevent criteria is maintaining oil pressure with an oil of 2.6 cP?
Like i said i have no problems whatsoever using xw20 or xw16w oils in engines designed for them but they are putting warnings out for the xw16 oils about backwards compatibility.
Why is that if the xw16 with less than 2.4 cP couldn't be used in any engine as long as they can maintain oil pressure?
Could it be that unless the engine was specifically designed for this oil a less than 2.4 cP isn't enough to protect the engine?
Couldn't the same be said for a 2.6 cP oil in an old school engine? I believe it could.
I guess you and i will have to agree to disagree on this magical 2.6 CP number is able to provide optimal engine protection in any engine under any conditions.
There are many reasons why heavier oil grades are specified by some manufacturers but that is a separate question to your original point that, "Adding an oil pressure gauge is not a bad thing it is just not going to give you enough information under all conditions."
What I've tried to explain is that statement is simply not true.
An OP gauge (in conjunction with an oil temp' gauge for very high temp's) will tell you what you're operational viscosity is in a running engine; nothing else will.
What an OP gauge will not do is tell what OP level is too low if that info hasn't already been determined.
Your original comment about an OP gauge not being able to pick up crank flex is immaterial since that is not the purpose of an OP gauge. But if you knew that the operational viscosity level associated an OP level of say 45 psi did allow metal to metal contact under maximum load when crank flex occurred and that 50 psi didn't, then an OP gauge would be a very useful tool indeed to establish and maintain the minimum operational viscosity requirements to deal with that particular issue.
Every engine has a safe minimum operational viscosity that can be readily established; the manufacturers OP test spec's are a good place to start.
If one is going to experiment with different oil viscosities I know of no other way to keep track of where you're at than with the use of OP and OT gauges. You could drop down an oil grade to a 20wt from a 30 wt, run a UOA and get a good result but it still wouldn't tell you what you're really doing in terms of actual operational viscosity; you're still experimenting blind.
Did you test the OEM OP test spec's and if you did how often and under what conditions?
When you thought the engine oil must have been really hot on that 100F up hill climb, was it really?
It's OP and OT gauges that tells you what really going on.
Quote:
Saying that you can't run a 2.6cP 20wt oil (or even something lighter) in an engine implies that you can't maintain adequate OP. Because if you can maintain the previously established safe minimum OP then by definition you are maintaining an adequate operational oil viscosity
That makes the assumption that a 2.6 cP oil is enough to protect a high HP/output engine under all conditions it might encounter.
The Europeans don't seem to have much faith in this theory, most of their oil for these engines are HTHS 3.5+.
You can say i am over thinking this but i would say you are under estimating the importance of HTHS and block/crank rigidity and the boundary film offered by higher HTHS oils in engines that by design require it.
Marine engines are a perfect example of the necessity of stiff blocks and bottom end.
GM in this case has gone to great lengths to stiffen the bottom end.
http://gmpowertrain.com/2013_pdf/FHR_REV_6.0_Marine_010713.pdf
My question to you is why do they bother going to 6 bolt mains and super stiff block if the most relevent criteria is maintaining oil pressure with an oil of 2.6 cP?
Like i said i have no problems whatsoever using xw20 or xw16w oils in engines designed for them but they are putting warnings out for the xw16 oils about backwards compatibility.
Why is that if the xw16 with less than 2.4 cP couldn't be used in any engine as long as they can maintain oil pressure?
Could it be that unless the engine was specifically designed for this oil a less than 2.4 cP isn't enough to protect the engine?
Couldn't the same be said for a 2.6 cP oil in an old school engine? I believe it could.
I guess you and i will have to agree to disagree on this magical 2.6 CP number is able to provide optimal engine protection in any engine under any conditions.
There are many reasons why heavier oil grades are specified by some manufacturers but that is a separate question to your original point that, "Adding an oil pressure gauge is not a bad thing it is just not going to give you enough information under all conditions."
What I've tried to explain is that statement is simply not true.
An OP gauge (in conjunction with an oil temp' gauge for very high temp's) will tell you what you're operational viscosity is in a running engine; nothing else will.
What an OP gauge will not do is tell what OP level is too low if that info hasn't already been determined.
Your original comment about an OP gauge not being able to pick up crank flex is immaterial since that is not the purpose of an OP gauge. But if you knew that the operational viscosity level associated an OP level of say 45 psi did allow metal to metal contact under maximum load when crank flex occurred and that 50 psi didn't, then an OP gauge would be a very useful tool indeed to establish and maintain the minimum operational viscosity requirements to deal with that particular issue.
Every engine has a safe minimum operational viscosity that can be readily established; the manufacturers OP test spec's are a good place to start.
If one is going to experiment with different oil viscosities I know of no other way to keep track of where you're at than with the use of OP and OT gauges. You could drop down an oil grade to a 20wt from a 30 wt, run a UOA and get a good result but it still wouldn't tell you what you're really doing in terms of actual operational viscosity; you're still experimenting blind.
Did you test the OEM OP test spec's and if you did how often and under what conditions?
When you thought the engine oil must have been really hot on that 100F up hill climb, was it really?
It's OP and OT gauges that tells you what really going on.
I'm going with trav on this one. There's too much money riding on an oil pressure gauge for my liking. I mean there's nothing wrong with an oil pressure gauge, or a temp gauge but they aren't infallible are they? I've seen an oil gauge stick, tried two different gauges on an engine and got 2 different readings. Can you have good oil pressure with two different grades of oil, and more wear with one grade vs. another? Will a pressure gauge tell if that is going on? These things always come into my head when I look at these threads. Lots to learn here, I wish I had more time.
Originally Posted By: ADFD1
Can you have good oil pressure with two different grades of oil, and more wear with one grade vs. another? Will a pressure gauge tell if that is going on? These things always come into my head when I look at these threads. Lots to learn here, I wish I had more time.
A lighter grade (lower HTHSV) will of course produce a lower OP value than an heavier oil grade (higher HTHSV) but OP varies markedly with both rpm and oil temperature which can be confounding to some.
Consiquently if you want to accurately compare OP differences between two different oils you must also have an oil temperature gauge to eliminate that variable.
OP and OT gauges are very valuable tools if you take the time to learn how to use them properly but many drivers simply don't have the patience to do so. This lack of interest is also all too common at the track even with some experienced amateur racers. Most lunched engines could have been avoided if drivers understood and routinely checked the OP characteristics of their engines.
Can you have good oil pressure with two different grades of oil, and more wear with one grade vs. another? Will a pressure gauge tell if that is going on? These things always come into my head when I look at these threads. Lots to learn here, I wish I had more time.
A lighter grade (lower HTHSV) will of course produce a lower OP value than an heavier oil grade (higher HTHSV) but OP varies markedly with both rpm and oil temperature which can be confounding to some.
Consiquently if you want to accurately compare OP differences between two different oils you must also have an oil temperature gauge to eliminate that variable.
OP and OT gauges are very valuable tools if you take the time to learn how to use them properly but many drivers simply don't have the patience to do so. This lack of interest is also all too common at the track even with some experienced amateur racers. Most lunched engines could have been avoided if drivers understood and routinely checked the OP characteristics of their engines.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: ADFD1
Can you have good oil pressure with two different grades of oil, and more wear with one grade vs. another? Will a pressure gauge tell if that is going on? These things always come into my head when I look at these threads. Lots to learn here, I wish I had more time.
A lighter grade (lower HTHSV) will of course produce a lower OP value than an heavier oil grade (higher HTHSV) but OP varies markedly with both rpm and oil temperature which can be confounding to some.
Consiquently if you want to accurately compare OP differences between two different oils you must also have an oil temperature gauge to eliminate that variable.
OP and OT gauges are very valuable tools if you take the time to learn how to use them properly but many drivers simply don't have the patience to do so. This lack of interest is also all too common at the track even with some experienced amateur racers. Most lunched engines could have been avoided if drivers understood and routinely checked the OP characteristics of their engines.
I like how you explain things caterham. And your right. With an oil temp gauge,and oil pressure gauge you have an effective viscometer.
Now a person would need to know thick the oil needs to be around the bearing and how quickly it's pushed out,causing parts to touch.
However if a thin oil can be kept cool enough to maintain a thicker film on moving parts and thinner oil means the pump can move more volume which also helps keep bearings cooler and thinner oil can take heat away faster as well.
There are just so many variables to consider when it comes to this stuff.
A.E. Haas is running thinner grades in his exotics that call for substantially thicker oil. I wonder how much data he has collected in his applications.
I'm just starting to have faith in 20 grades and that's only because of my hemi and how well it runs considering its had bulk oil from the dealer it's whole life and considering the high miles and doesn't consume any noticeable amount of oil between changes.
I'm still going to run a 50/50 mix of M1 0w-40 and either tgmo or M1 afe in my mustangs this year. They are known top shelf oils and I like the balance of free reving and known protection especially how I drive my mustangs.
Originally Posted By: ADFD1
Can you have good oil pressure with two different grades of oil, and more wear with one grade vs. another? Will a pressure gauge tell if that is going on? These things always come into my head when I look at these threads. Lots to learn here, I wish I had more time.
A lighter grade (lower HTHSV) will of course produce a lower OP value than an heavier oil grade (higher HTHSV) but OP varies markedly with both rpm and oil temperature which can be confounding to some.
Consiquently if you want to accurately compare OP differences between two different oils you must also have an oil temperature gauge to eliminate that variable.
OP and OT gauges are very valuable tools if you take the time to learn how to use them properly but many drivers simply don't have the patience to do so. This lack of interest is also all too common at the track even with some experienced amateur racers. Most lunched engines could have been avoided if drivers understood and routinely checked the OP characteristics of their engines.
I like how you explain things caterham. And your right. With an oil temp gauge,and oil pressure gauge you have an effective viscometer.
Now a person would need to know thick the oil needs to be around the bearing and how quickly it's pushed out,causing parts to touch.
However if a thin oil can be kept cool enough to maintain a thicker film on moving parts and thinner oil means the pump can move more volume which also helps keep bearings cooler and thinner oil can take heat away faster as well.
There are just so many variables to consider when it comes to this stuff.
A.E. Haas is running thinner grades in his exotics that call for substantially thicker oil. I wonder how much data he has collected in his applications.
I'm just starting to have faith in 20 grades and that's only because of my hemi and how well it runs considering its had bulk oil from the dealer it's whole life and considering the high miles and doesn't consume any noticeable amount of oil between changes.
I'm still going to run a 50/50 mix of M1 0w-40 and either tgmo or M1 afe in my mustangs this year. They are known top shelf oils and I like the balance of free reving and known protection especially how I drive my mustangs.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
CATERHAM said:
K. So caterham. What do you think is adequate oil pressure for a ford pushrod 5.0 and a ford dohc 4.6.
The 4.6 has an oil cooler,the 5.0 is basically stock.
I have a built 306 going into the 88 once this engine blows. The new engine has a high volume oil pump however all clearances were kept stock.
Let me know what you figure and I will try them out.
Thank you
The 4.6 has an oil cooler,the 5.0 is basically stock.
I have a built 306 going into the 88 once this engine blows. The new engine has a high volume oil pump however all clearances were kept stock.
Let me know what you figure and I will try them out.
Thank you
Hi All...sorry to deviate a little.
I've read about checking the pressure of the engine to determine what oil is right for you. I subscribe to the idea, the only challenge is that my ride Civic 2002 Ex at 160,000miles and still riding well only has the rpm indicator. So how do I get to determine the oil or engine psi at say 2000 rpm.
I've read about checking the pressure of the engine to determine what oil is right for you. I subscribe to the idea, the only challenge is that my ride Civic 2002 Ex at 160,000miles and still riding well only has the rpm indicator. So how do I get to determine the oil or engine psi at say 2000 rpm.
Originally Posted By: Chilaka
Hi All...sorry to deviate a little.
I've read about checking the pressure of the engine to determine what oil is right for you. I subscribe to the idea, the only challenge is that my ride Civic 2002 Ex at 160,000miles and still riding well only has the rpm indicator. So how do I get to determine the oil or engine psi at say 2000 rpm.
You would have to buy aftermarket gauges and have them installed. You need oil temp and oil pressure.
I suggest looking at eBay. My mustang has a 2 and 3 gauge cluster that can be put on the a pillar and just replaces the trip piece. Perhaps you can find something similar for your car.
Hi All...sorry to deviate a little.
I've read about checking the pressure of the engine to determine what oil is right for you. I subscribe to the idea, the only challenge is that my ride Civic 2002 Ex at 160,000miles and still riding well only has the rpm indicator. So how do I get to determine the oil or engine psi at say 2000 rpm.
You would have to buy aftermarket gauges and have them installed. You need oil temp and oil pressure.
I suggest looking at eBay. My mustang has a 2 and 3 gauge cluster that can be put on the a pillar and just replaces the trip piece. Perhaps you can find something similar for your car.
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