Do you ever buy non top tier gas when top tier is available?

[Breanna]

There’s really no reason for your attitude about it.

I have an extremely great knowledge about it, talked to at least 30 refinery employees, and many many fuel truck drivers that haul it for a living. Yet i was dismissed as incorrect. So then call the source, ask, and report back.
I know that I am correct, so looking forward to their report. Maybe its different in other places, but in 2 out of the 3 refineries in BC, that is how its done. So instead of telling me that I am wrong, make some calls, and confirm, before calling me a liar, or at the very least stupid. Google their phone numbers, and call.
Cheers

 

[y_p_w]

Call the Husky refinery in Prince George, and Chevron refinery in Burnaby, the two I've been to dozens and dozens of times, and my uncle, and cousins thousands of times. Then get back to us with the results of your calls, I look forward to it. Same gas, same diesel to all stations, and only Chevron makes Jet A1, not the Husky, but ask about it as well. Really looking forward to your report.

Nobody is doubting that, but you don't seem to understand the question, which is about Top Tier requirements.

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/ener...petroleum-products-distribution-networks/5897
In order to reduce transportation costs and to capitalize on increasing economies of scale, refiners enter into a large number of product exchange agreements with one another. Product exchanges occur when one refiner provides another refiner with specific products in a certain location in exchange for a similar quality and volume of products in another location.

Product exchanges significantly reduce the volumes and distances over which products are moved, thereby considerably reducing transportation costs and environmental exposure. These agreements have not only allowed the industry to consolidate their operations at the refinery level but have also led to a consolidation of local product terminals. It is no longer unusual to purchase gasoline from a branded outlet that was produced by one of its main competitors.
** ** **
Most of Canada's refined petroleum product distribution network is operated by three national oil companies (Shell, PetroCanada, and Imperial Oil) and a handful of regional refiners (Irving Oil, Ultramar, Suncor Energy, Federated Co-op, Husky and Chevron). With only a few exceptions, all products terminals are owned and operated by one of these companies.

But again, the primary things that creates the "brand" are that the fuel is withdrawn within the fuel marketer's distribution agreements at a specified fuel terminal, and the additive package that is specified. But the fuel itself is likely just a commodity grade fuel.

 

[Blinker]

I have an extremely great knowledge about it, talked to at least 30 refinery employees, and many many fuel truck drivers that haul it for a living. Yet i was dismissed as incorrect. So then call the source, ask, and report back.
I know that I am correct, so looking forward to their report. Maybe its different in other places, but in 2 out of the 3 refineries in BC, that is how its done. So instead of telling me that I am wrong, make some calls, and confirm, before calling me a liar, or at the very least stupid. Google their phone numbers, and call.
Cheers

y_p_w Is very knowledgeable about the fuel chain supply in the US. I noticed that you’re located in Canada. There could possibly be differences in the fuel chain supply in the US vs Canada.

I read the previous posts. No one called you a liar, or implied that you’re stupid. Those are conclusions that you came to on your own.

 

[y_p_w]

I have an extremely great knowledge about it, talked to at least 30 refinery employees, and many many fuel truck drivers that haul it for a living. Yet i was dismissed as incorrect. So then call the source, ask, and report back.
I know that I am correct, so looking forward to their report. Maybe its different in other places, but in 2 out of the 3 refineries in BC, that is how its done. So instead of telling me that I am wrong, make some calls, and confirm, before calling me a liar, or at the very least stupid. Google their phone numbers, and call.
Cheers

Your knowledge is incomplete. These refineries have to shut down from time to time, so the fuel they get for their attached fuel terminals has to be supplemented with fungible commodity fuel. For instance, one of the refineries you previously discussed was mostly shut down for a period last year for upgrades. However, no fuel terminal is going to just shut down since they all have customers to serve. They're all connected to pipelines, rail, and/or marine terminals that move refined gasoline. I wouldn't surprise me if fuel was moved from Alberta through the Trans Mountain Pipeline when BC has shortages, or vice-versa.

https://www.ogj.com/refining-proces...-fuel-wrapping-up-burnaby-refinery-turnaround
Parkland Fuel Corp. subsidiary Parkland Refining (B.C.) Ltd. is nearing completion of work activities related to the 2020 turnaround that began in February at its 55,000-b/d refinery on Burrard Inlet in North Burnaby, near North Vancouver, BC.

With the refinery’s startup sequence now under way, Parkland Refining expects about a 2-week process for the site to return to full operational capability when accounting for additional coronavirus (COVID-19) safety measures, Parkland Fuel said on Apr. 6.

https://www.transmountain.com/burnaby-terminal
Burnaby Terminal is the end point of the Trans Mountain Pipeline System. It is a distribution point for crude oil and refined products to local terminals – the Parkland refinery and the Westridge Marine Terminal. Burnaby Terminal currently has 13 tanks with a combined storage capacity of 1.6-m bbl with secondary and tertiary containment.

 

[y_p_w]

y_p_w Is very knowledgeable about the fuel chain supply in the US. I noticed that you’re located in Canada. There could possibly be differences in the fuel chain supply in the US vs Canada.

I read the previous posts. No one called you a liar, or implied that you’re stupid. Those are conclusions that you came to on your own.

No. I'm no expert on this. Just an amateur who took up interest since I live and grew up near the Chevron Richmond refinery. When I was a kid we'd get invitations for our school groups to use the Chevron Rod & Gun Club there. I drive by there from time to time, as it's the most convenient way to get to my county's household hazardous waste drop-off facility just off of Richmond Parkway.

I think the confusion here is about what it means to withdraw fuel from a specific terminal. It means the base fuel is coming that source (or at least the tanks there), but it doesn't necessarily mean that the detergent additives are the same. GoldDot specifically noted that the additive tanks he saw were clearly marked with the name of the fuel marketer. I'd be highly surprised if they don't do things that way in BC. There might be confusion because the personnel there state that the base fuel is the same regardless of who the customer is. However, even that's likely to change because every refinery will be shut down periodically for maintenance/upgrades or due to accidents.

Here's the Chevron Richmond terminal, which is marked as "Chevron Marketing Terminal".

https://goo.gl/maps/5BgJ5vnvqfpq7BdP8

Here's Kinder Morgan and Phillips 66, which are right next to each other.

https://goo.gl/maps/FpaD6z211yoKARQ67

And TransMontaigne.

https://goo.gl/maps/sfXS1ELFP9FNGYNR6

Kind of interesting what they have around the Vancouver area. Suncor (Petro-Canada) has some sort of distribution facility in Burnaby. Trans Mountain Pipeline has the big terminal with access to their Westridge marine terminal. Shell's distribution facility is near Trans Mountain's facility. Prince George is way, way out there, but is connected to Trans Mountain at Kamloops.

 

[GoldDot40]

I have an extremely great knowledge about it, talked to at least 30 refinery employees, and many many fuel truck drivers that haul it for a living. Yet i was dismissed as incorrect. So then call the source, ask, and report back.
I know that I am correct, so looking forward to their report. Maybe its different in other places, but in 2 out of the 3 refineries in BC, that is how its done. So instead of telling me that I am wrong, make some calls, and confirm, before calling me a liar, or at the very least stupid. Google their phone numbers, and call.
Cheers

I think you pointed out your own misunderstanding in your post. BC, Canada probably doesn't have a Federal Trade Commission like we have in the United States that regulates that people must get what they pay for. In your original assertion, you implied the way it's done in BC is the way it's done across the board...and THAT assertion IS WRONG. That is what @y_p_w was pointing out.

I can assure you that the way it's done here is that every specific brand gets it's own formula added as the common commodity blendstock product is loaded. In the massive holding tanks at the terminal....yes, all the gasoline is generic which is why it's considered a commodity. The difference is what's added to it when its loaded onto the tanker....which is what makes BP, Shell, ExxonMobil, Marathon, Valero, etc unique per load.

My town has 2 terminals. 1 is TransMontaigne and the other is Kinder-Morgan. Each have over 200,000 barrels capacity among their holding tanks. Both have massive separate holding tanks for 84CBOB, 90CBOB, ultra low sulfur clear diesel, ethanol...which is brought in by tanker trucks, and trans-mix.

Then there are several smaller tanks that hold the specific additives that are required to make each specific brand. The additives are brought in via tanker trucks as well. There's also a tank with just red dye that's injected into non-highway use/offroad diesel that makes it exempt from road tax. There's also a lubricant additive that's injected into some diesel formulations.

 

[y_p_w]

I think you pointed out your own misunderstanding in your post. BC, Canada probably doesn't have a Federal Trade Commission like we have in the United States that regulates that people must get what they pay for. In your original assertion, you implied the way it's done in BC is the way it's done across the board...and THAT assertion IS WRONG. That is what @y_p_w was pointing out.

I can assure you that the way it's done here is that every specific brand gets it's own formula added as the common commodity blendstock product is loaded. In the massive holding tanks at the terminal....yes, all the gasoline is generic which is why it's considered a commodity. The difference is what's added to it when its loaded onto the tanker....which is what makes BP, Shell, ExxonMobil, Marathon, Valero, etc unique per load.

I think there may be an even more basic misunderstanding here about what you meant by "soup of the day". I fully understood that you were referring to the detergent additive mixture added to a commodity fuel. I get that unbranded fuel usually just gets whatever generic additive is available at the terminal. But each branded fuel is going to get a specific additive blend that's provided by the fuel marketer. Even in Canada.

https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-a...leum-products/report/2019-gasoline/index.html
At terminals, retailers blend their gasoline with proprietary blends of performance and efficiency-enhancing additives, as well as with ethanol, according to federal and provincial renewable fuel requirements. As regional distribution centres, terminals are used as reference points for pricing at gasoline retail stations. Many terminal operators, including Petro-Canada, Shell Canada, and Valero, post their wholesale, or “rack”, prices publicly. Rack prices factor in costs incurred throughout the supply chain, including the price of crude oil, refining margins, and costs of transportation to the terminal, including tolls on gasoline-carrying pipelines. Aside from a relatively small marketing margin applied by the retailer, the entire cost of production (including profit margins) is included in the rack price. Government taxes applied at the pump comprise most of the difference between rack prices and pump prices.

As of 2017, there are 78 terminals registered with Environment and Climate Change Canada. All terminals in Canada have truck-offloading capacity, and some also have capacity to offload onto ships, railcars, or even pipelines. Logistically, tanker trucks are the most practical and economical way of getting gasoline to retail stations, because they allow for flexibility in both the volume and destination of each shipment. In the Atlantic Provinces, many terminals also have marine offloading capabilities, which allow them to supply smaller towns along the coast.

And even then there was a misunderstanding of what goes into the fuel at the terminal, just because the terminal is located at a refinery. You can take a look at this map, and it lists refineries by the multiples of barrels processed daily. The refineries in Alberta (which are closer to the sources of oil) have way more capacity and there's bound to be times when they receive fuel piped in from Alberta, or even from Washington. Besides that, I heard references to Chevron in Burnaby and Husky in Prince George, even though Chevron sold to Parkland Energy (in 2017) and Husky sold to Tidewater.

This was from the Canada Energy Regulator page link earlier:

Gasoline Imports​

Just as Canadian refineries process both domestic and imported oil, gasoline terminals import gasoline in addition to domestic supply. Although Canada is a net exporter of gasoline, some imports are required to meet local demand due to differences in regional production. Quebec generally imports the most gasoline, much of which is subsequently shipped to Ontario. The Atlantic Provinces and British Columbia are the next largest importers of gasoline. The Yukon occasionally imports gasoline from Alaska. The European Union (E.U.) and the U.S. are both large sources of these imports. In 2017, the E.U.exported 5.0 billion litres to Canada, and the U.S. Energy Information Administration reported 1.2 billion litres of finished motor gasoline exports to Canada.

https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/news/husky-energy-prince-george-refinery/

 

[GoldDot40]

I think there may be an even more basic misunderstanding here about what you meant by "soup of the day". I fully understood that you were referring to the detergent additive mixture added to a commodity fuel. I get that unbranded fuel usually just gets whatever generic additive is available at the terminal. But each branded fuel is going to get a specific additive blend that's provided by the fuel marketer. Even in Canada.

Actually, what I meant by soup of the day is that most unbranded independent stations aren't bound by contract to sell any specific brand of fuel. The bulk price fluctuates daily...sometimes several times per day. I may take a station ExxonMobil unbranded...the very next day, I may take that same station Trafigura, and the next time might even be Colonial.

These unbranded independent station owners want the least expensive product at the time I load it....aka "soup of the day". MOST of the unbranded products get the generic house additives, the difference being injection rates. Some however, get the same additive as the Branded product...but at a lower (but still meets the minimum requirement) injection rate

 

[y_p_w]

Actually, what I meant by soup of the day is that most unbranded independent stations aren't bound by contract to sell any specific brand of fuel. The bulk price fluctuates daily...sometimes several times per day. I may take a station ExxonMobil unbranded...the very next day, I may take that same station Trafigura, and the next time might even be Colonial.

These unbranded independent station owners want the least expensive product at the time I load it....aka "soup of the day". MOST of the unbranded products get the generic house additives, the difference being injection rates. Some however, get the same additive as the Branded product...but at a lower (but still meets the minimum requirement) injection rate

The Canadian regulator’s website mentioned a rack rate posted for each terminal, and sold by the terminal operator. That may be a difference in the distribution model in Canada.

However, it sounds like you could go to the same rack and choose to load up from different sellers at different spot prices, even though the base fuel delivered is identical. I though your “soup of the day” description was misconstrued as meaning the base fuel would be physically different fuel and not just a matter of who is selling.

Some of the complaints over the years here is that branded stations were obligated to sell branded fuel at the price set by the branded company (e.g. Chevron) based on the station’s location. Some wished to be able to buy at a spot price if that would lower their costs and pass that on with lower pump prices.

 

[y_p_w]

Actually, what I meant by soup of the day is that most unbranded independent stations aren't bound by contract to sell any specific brand of fuel. The bulk price fluctuates daily...sometimes several times per day. I may take a station ExxonMobil unbranded...the very next day, I may take that same station Trafigura, and the next time might even be Colonial.

I think there might be a whole lot of confusion over what it means when fuel is "branded". This is a pretty interesting discussion on how things happen up north.

https://www.canadianfuels.ca/news-c...more-choice-than-ever-when-they-buy-gasoline/
There are several basic operating structures that can broadly be categorized as either controlled and non-controlled. A controlled site means the marketer owns the fuel inventory and sets the price at the site, and non-controlled means the retailer owns the fuel inventory and sets the price.

The controlled sites often operate as commissioned agents, meaning the marketer retains ownership of the fuel and the retailer is paid a commission on its sales. A non-controlled retailer simply buys fuel from the marketer, and resells at its independently owned and operated retail site.

Non-refiner marketers operating refiner-branded sites buy fuel on a branded contract from refiners. These marketers can also operate under their own brands. One example of this is Parkland Fuels operating sites under the Pioneer banner.
** ** **
In the survey, we identified 69 companies in Canada managing at least two stations, and of those marketers, 59 operate at least some of their retail network under their own brands.

The big three names in refining, however, still dominate. Suncor, Esso or Shell brands appear at 39 per cent of stations across the country. However, they maintain price control at only 11 per cent of stations.

 

[GoldDot40]

Yeah, Canada does things a little different vs here in the states....but there are a lot of similarities based on the article you posted. In my experience with retailers in this country, the product (branded or unbranded) becomes the property of the cosigned retailer as soon as it is loaded onto the truck. The invoice is automatically sent electronically as soon as I end/complete the load.

When I key in for the product, in most cases I have to select the specific site/address the product will be delivered to. In some cases, I can select "Various Georgia" or "Various South Carolina". BUT, whatever state is selected for the destination...that is the state it MUST be delivered to. If I get caught delivering product destined for GA in SC...that's bad...real bad. The fines are astronomical.

Branded stores are nothing more than franchisees. Even the corporate chains like Circle K...they sell a lot of different brands and also have a lot of unbranded stores. The fuel supplier brand owns the signage...and that's it...not the product in their tanks. The fuel suppliers don't set the retail price at the pump. That is done at the corporate office of the retailer or home office of the independent.

One of my independent stores is a Shell branded store. He can set his price to whatever he wants as long as he's in compliance with the government. For instance, he cannot legally "price gouge". He says that the minimum profit he'll accept on a gasoline sale is 7 cents per gallon.

I never see the wholesale price on my end. All I get and must keep to transport it is a bill of laden...aka manifest, that breaks down how many gallons of what is on my trailer. Once the product is delivered, the retailer gets a copy and I (the carrier) retain a copy of the manifest and we both have to keep these copies for 2 years. That manifest is what "The MAN" will want to see in case of an audit. Whatever brand is on that manifest had better match the signage on the canopy over the pumps.

 

[y_p_w]

Yeah, Canada does things a little different vs here in the states....but there are a lot of similarities based on the article you posted. In my experience with retailers in this country, the product (branded or unbranded) becomes the property of the cosigned retailer as soon as it is loaded onto the truck. The invoice is automatically sent electronically as soon as I end/complete the load.

When I key in for the product, in most cases I have to select the specific site/address the product will be delivered to. In some cases, I can select "Various Georgia" or "Various South Carolina". BUT, whatever state is selected for the destination...that is the state it MUST be delivered to. If I get caught delivering product destined for GA in SC...that's bad...real bad. The fines are astronomical.

Branded stores are nothing more than franchisees. Even the corporate chains like Circle K...they sell a lot of different brands and also have a lot of unbranded stores. The fuel supplier brand owns the signage...and that's it...not the product in their tanks. The fuel suppliers don't set the retail price at the pump. That is done at the corporate office of the retailer or home office of the independent.

One of my independent stores is a Shell branded store. He can set his price to whatever he wants as long as he's in compliance with the government. For instance, he cannot legally "price gouge". He says that the minimum profit he'll accept on a gasoline sale is 7 cents per gallon.

I never see the wholesale price on my end. All I get and must keep to transport it is a bill of laden...aka manifest, that breaks down how many gallons of what is on my trailer. Once the product is delivered, the retailer gets a copy and I (the carrier) retain a copy of the manifest and we both have to keep these copies for 2 years. That manifest is what "The MAN" will want to see in case of an audit. Whatever brand is on that manifest had better match the signage on the canopy over the pumps.

I suppose you understand some of the skepticism that the "brand" of the fuel matches that on the sign. There a ton of skepticism of all sorts of details such as octane rating and whether or not the fuel meets certain standards. But as much as there's skepticism, I understand that cheating comes with some serious consequences.

One of the things that a lot of retailers with branded contracts hated around here was that they had to charge so much based on neighborhood pricing. As such they often had to deal with customers who weren't too happy about paying so much and weren't so inclined to spend money on convenience store items, which were generally the bulk of their profits.

But this conversation we're having here seems to be more about confusion over definitions. I certainly didn't doubt some of the things claimed, but I also didn't quite get that there was a full understanding of what you were saying - especially regarding the "brand". The gist I got was that as a common carrier, you could be sued by the fuel marketer if you knowingly delivered non-branded fuel to a branded gas station. But the definition of "branded" wasn't necessarily tied the source of the base fuel. It seems to be more about how it's paid for thought a contract from (for example) Sunoco to one of their franchise owners.

This article seems to lay out some of the issues with compliance when using common carriers to move fuel. Right now I probably see more Kenan Advantage trucks than any other fuel hauler. Some years ago it was Beneto until they got bought out. I don't believe I've seen a fuel brand on a fuel tanker in years in my area.

https://www.epa.gov/fuels-registrat...many-retailerdistributors-use-common-carriers

As for the convenience store gas stations, I guess it depends. There's been a 7-Eleven in Oakland, California that's had a gas station since at least the 80s. I remember when the gas station part was branded as Citgo, but that ended a while ago and the pumps currently just have the 7-Eleven logo. I can't think of any other convenience store brands that aren't attached to a fuel marketer, like Corner Store with Valero, ExtraMile with Chevron, ampm with Arco, etc. We do have this regional convenience store chain called Loop, which I've only seen combined with a Shell station. However, quiet a few Shell stations I see just have a generic "Food Mart" sign.

 

[GMBoy]

I buy Top Tier gas 95% of the time because there is a benefit to it. The other 5% of the time is when I cash out my Kroger fuel points which is also the same time I dump in a bottle of PEA fuel additive (Gumout Regaine or Techron).

 

[EvilDarkCow]

I'm a bit late here, but...

I get Top Tier fuel probably 95% of the time. We're kinda spoiled in my area when it comes to Top Tier gas. You almost have to go out of your way to find a non-TT station.

Around here, QuikTrip rules the world, with shiny new stations on seemingly every corner. There's often a line to get gas, they're so high volume. But there's also a mom & pop Cenex by my house that stays pretty busy, and a good spread of Conoco, Phillips 66, Valero, and a couple Sinclair stations, but they're pretty low volume and if the pumps are run like the stores they're attached to, I'd rather skip them. There's also Costco, but that's on the other side of town.

If it's an emergency and I can't make it to QuikTrip (or any of the other aforementioned places), we also have non-TT Casey's and KwikShop (a former Kroger chain now owned by UK-based EG Group, who also owns Tom Thumb, Turkey Hill, and Cumberland Farms) that also stay pretty busy. The new EG-built KwikShop stores are really nice and modern, but since they're not TT I haven't touched their pumps. And then, of course, there's Dillon's (Kroger), but I haven't bought gas there in years.

With all the competition around, TT and Non-TT cost the same here, and with the good availability, there's no reason to skip it. QuikTrip has a rewards program at stores in my area that (if you buy as many snacks and drinks as I do) makes good gas super cheap.

 

[nomas]

Many years ago , before I retired , I was working in a power substation located inside a tank farm . I went into the control room to talk to the operator and he told me to hang on for a minute he was about to go " online " . After he got the pumps started ( Interesting process ) he took a few minutes to explain things to me . The pipeline dispatcher schedules the different tank farms all over the country to move product on a precise schedule . When you're up , you have a certain number of minutes to get your pumps online and start moving whatever was scheduled . If you can't get them online they drop you and move on to the next guy . That day it was regular grade gasoline going toward the west coast . That's when I learned that it didn't matter who refined it , it goes through the same pipeline and gets mixed together . As stated previously here , it's the additives that make whatever difference there is .