I don't have a dog in this fight, but I know Chevy used to request that Mobil 1 be used in the Corvette at least until the warranty is over. If you read Blackstones web site Faqs, they state they don't use synthetic oil in their personal vehicles as regular oil works fine for them. That says alot considering they test all types of oil for a living.,,
Dino better for engine "break in" period? Experts!
- Thread starter antiqueshell
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Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I like to hear from those with metallurgy and engine manufacturing expertise about you thoughts about using dino versus synthetic oil for the engine break in periods.
It makes sense to me that the exceptional wear reduction properties of synthetic oil might hinder the proper seating of pistons and rings during this critical engine break in period.
What are the exceptional wear reduction properties of a full synthetic oil?
This is news to the BITOG world.
Use a dino for break in because it is cheaper, and you will short OCI the first change.
I like to hear from those with metallurgy and engine manufacturing expertise about you thoughts about using dino versus synthetic oil for the engine break in periods.
It makes sense to me that the exceptional wear reduction properties of synthetic oil might hinder the proper seating of pistons and rings during this critical engine break in period.
What are the exceptional wear reduction properties of a full synthetic oil?
This is news to the BITOG world.
Use a dino for break in because it is cheaper, and you will short OCI the first change.
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I know Chevy used to request that Mobil 1 be used in the Corvette at least until the warranty is over. If you read Blackstones web site Faqs, they state they don't use synthetic oil in their personal vehicles as regular oil works fine for them. That says alot considering they test all types of oil for a living.,,
The more time I spend on this site the more lost in the weeds I feel. I've been using Mobil 1 since the mid seventies on more vehicles than I can remember....never a oil related problem...NEVER. Anytime I've been inside an engine I owned, I was really impressed with the cleanliness...never any sludge NEVER ANY...also any moving parts that were visible NO wear. I''m thinking right now of a Nissan Altima 2.5L some time back....having a look at the camshaft....the tooling marks were still visible with more than 125k miles. I don't understand some of the high metals in UOA....the test of time has proven these products to be Superior...I know some formulas have changed (which concerns me)...but I don't see any evidence the engine protection has over time....hopefully the EPA doesn't ruin our engines over trivial concerns...they will if allowed...oh ya the reason I tried these products when no one else would (70's) A big name dino ruined a GM 350 on me...the deposits and sludge stopped the engines ability to lubricate...OCI were always on time.. probably better now but I don't care...$10 2x per year for the insurance...DONE
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I know Chevy used to request that Mobil 1 be used in the Corvette at least until the warranty is over. If you read Blackstones web site Faqs, they state they don't use synthetic oil in their personal vehicles as regular oil works fine for them. That says alot considering they test all types of oil for a living.,,
The more time I spend on this site the more lost in the weeds I feel. I've been using Mobil 1 since the mid seventies on more vehicles than I can remember....never a oil related problem...NEVER. Anytime I've been inside an engine I owned, I was really impressed with the cleanliness...never any sludge NEVER ANY...also any moving parts that were visible NO wear. I''m thinking right now of a Nissan Altima 2.5L some time back....having a look at the camshaft....the tooling marks were still visible with more than 125k miles. I don't understand some of the high metals in UOA....the test of time has proven these products to be Superior...I know some formulas have changed (which concerns me)...but I don't see any evidence the engine protection has over time....hopefully the EPA doesn't ruin our engines over trivial concerns...they will if allowed...oh ya the reason I tried these products when no one else would (70's) A big name dino ruined a GM 350 on me...the deposits and sludge stopped the engines ability to lubricate...OCI were always on time.. probably better now but I don't care...$10 2x per year for the insurance...DONE
A lot of high performance engines these days start life at the factory with Mobil 1, or in BMW's case Castrol or their oil.
Dino can't really keep up in high performance applications anymore.
Dino can't really keep up in high performance applications anymore.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
A
Dino can't really keep up in high performance applications anymore.
You're funny!
A
Dino can't really keep up in high performance applications anymore.
You're funny!
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
....
Easy break in is not a good method for any engine.
I've used both synthetic and mineral oil for break in and really can't tell any difference.
Excepting the V12, none of my engines consume any detectable quantity of oil between OCI's. In the instance of the G8 and Torrent, these are very long OCI's - longer than I ever thought I would run.
I doubt that an engine made in this century needs any break in. I just follow the mfr. instructions (if any).
....
Easy break in is not a good method for any engine.
I've used both synthetic and mineral oil for break in and really can't tell any difference.
Excepting the V12, none of my engines consume any detectable quantity of oil between OCI's. In the instance of the G8 and Torrent, these are very long OCI's - longer than I ever thought I would run.
I doubt that an engine made in this century needs any break in. I just follow the mfr. instructions (if any).
Originally Posted By: Patman
Contrary to popular belief, synthetic oils are not "more slippery" than conventional oils, so it makes no difference whatsoever in the break in of a new engine.
While I agree that it really makes no difference, the first part of that statement isn't actually true. All else equal, a group III or IV oil will have a lower coefficient of friction than a G II oil. Of course, not all is equal and the additive pack also factors into the overall CoF. In sciency terms, synthetic base stocks really are "more slippery" (though not by a huge margin).
While there are still "break in oils" available that contain no friction modifiers, it's interesting that Honda's "break in oil" is a highly friction-modified synthetic oil--and Honda are pretty much the only major car company using a different "break in oil". Given that, I think any car would be suitable for any approved oil by the time you're ready to change it.
Contrary to popular belief, synthetic oils are not "more slippery" than conventional oils, so it makes no difference whatsoever in the break in of a new engine.
While I agree that it really makes no difference, the first part of that statement isn't actually true. All else equal, a group III or IV oil will have a lower coefficient of friction than a G II oil. Of course, not all is equal and the additive pack also factors into the overall CoF. In sciency terms, synthetic base stocks really are "more slippery" (though not by a huge margin).
While there are still "break in oils" available that contain no friction modifiers, it's interesting that Honda's "break in oil" is a highly friction-modified synthetic oil--and Honda are pretty much the only major car company using a different "break in oil". Given that, I think any car would be suitable for any approved oil by the time you're ready to change it.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
A
Dino can't really keep up in high performance applications anymore.
You're funny!
Give it a go in a twin turbo Porsche for 15k miles and report back with the results. Would love to see it!
Or a ZR1 on track day, bet you could boil up some nice PYB!
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
A
Dino can't really keep up in high performance applications anymore.
You're funny!
Give it a go in a twin turbo Porsche for 15k miles and report back with the results. Would love to see it!
Or a ZR1 on track day, bet you could boil up some nice PYB!
Last edited:
My question is, how do you know what is synthetic and what is dino nowadays? When they all are up to performance spec and use all sorts of ingredient to blend?
It is no longer group 1 that will shear down quickly vs PAO, but group II+/III blend vs group III on same additive (according to Valvoline's data sheet / VOA).
It is no longer group 1 that will shear down quickly vs PAO, but group II+/III blend vs group III on same additive (according to Valvoline's data sheet / VOA).
I use groupIII synthetics so I know I have covered both bases..
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I like to hear from those with metallurgy and engine manufacturing expertise about you thoughts about using dino versus synthetic oil for the engine break in periods.
It makes sense to me that the exceptional wear reduction properties of synthetic oil might hinder the proper seating of pistons and rings during this critical engine break in period.
OEM/Factory or field re-built?
The former are better machined at the foundry, the critical early break in is much faster, and usually done (on conventional or a special blend) before final vehicle assembly. Then they pump in the advertised synthetic for delivery. You can usually run a synthetic with no issues. Some notable exceptions from owner board experiences may be certain diesels and Europeans.
Field rebuilds (including racing and track modified blocks) still harken back to the old standards. The length of initial seating will be more heavily dictated by the skill of the machinist/assembler. They typically benefit from break in on a non-synthetic oil, and many shops still specifically advise to do so.
I like to hear from those with metallurgy and engine manufacturing expertise about you thoughts about using dino versus synthetic oil for the engine break in periods.
It makes sense to me that the exceptional wear reduction properties of synthetic oil might hinder the proper seating of pistons and rings during this critical engine break in period.
OEM/Factory or field re-built?
The former are better machined at the foundry, the critical early break in is much faster, and usually done (on conventional or a special blend) before final vehicle assembly. Then they pump in the advertised synthetic for delivery. You can usually run a synthetic with no issues. Some notable exceptions from owner board experiences may be certain diesels and Europeans.
Field rebuilds (including racing and track modified blocks) still harken back to the old standards. The length of initial seating will be more heavily dictated by the skill of the machinist/assembler. They typically benefit from break in on a non-synthetic oil, and many shops still specifically advise to do so.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
A
Dino can't really keep up in high performance applications anymore.
You're funny!
Give it a go in a twin turbo Porsche for 15k miles and report back with the results. Would love to see it!
Or a ZR1 on track day, bet you could boil up some nice PYB!
You are right.
Extraordinarily long OCIs like 15,000 miles with/ and /or a hard run turbocharged engine is best with a full synthetic.
But do you also note that not all turbo engine Mfrs require or spec a full synthetic?
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
A
Dino can't really keep up in high performance applications anymore.
You're funny!
Give it a go in a twin turbo Porsche for 15k miles and report back with the results. Would love to see it!
Or a ZR1 on track day, bet you could boil up some nice PYB!
You are right.
Extraordinarily long OCIs like 15,000 miles with/ and /or a hard run turbocharged engine is best with a full synthetic.
But do you also note that not all turbo engine Mfrs require or spec a full synthetic?
Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I like to hear from those with metallurgy and engine manufacturing expertise about you thoughts about using dino versus synthetic oil for the engine break in periods.
It makes sense to me that the exceptional wear reduction properties of synthetic oil might hinder the proper seating of pistons and rings during this critical engine break in period.
OEM/Factory or field re-built?
The former are better machined at the foundry, the critical early break in is much faster, and usually done (on conventional or a special blend) before final vehicle assembly. Then they pump in the advertised synthetic for delivery. You can usually run a synthetic with no issues. Some notable exceptions from owner board experiences may be certain diesels and Europeans.
Field rebuilds (including racing and track modified blocks) still harken back to the old standards. The length of initial seating will be more heavily dictated by the skill of the machinist/assembler. They typically benefit from break in on a non-synthetic oil, and many shops still specifically advise to do so.
^This.
When the engine in my Protege5 was rebuilt a year ago, the old advice was given. Conventional oil, change it at about 500-1000 miles, again at say 3000 after the rebuild, then follow the factory recommended OCI.
So far, I've put about 22K miles in about 11 months on the rebuild without drama. It may use a quart in the 5-6k interval. I attribute that to my heavy right foot and the 3.5 quart sump capacity
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I like to hear from those with metallurgy and engine manufacturing expertise about you thoughts about using dino versus synthetic oil for the engine break in periods.
It makes sense to me that the exceptional wear reduction properties of synthetic oil might hinder the proper seating of pistons and rings during this critical engine break in period.
OEM/Factory or field re-built?
The former are better machined at the foundry, the critical early break in is much faster, and usually done (on conventional or a special blend) before final vehicle assembly. Then they pump in the advertised synthetic for delivery. You can usually run a synthetic with no issues. Some notable exceptions from owner board experiences may be certain diesels and Europeans.
Field rebuilds (including racing and track modified blocks) still harken back to the old standards. The length of initial seating will be more heavily dictated by the skill of the machinist/assembler. They typically benefit from break in on a non-synthetic oil, and many shops still specifically advise to do so.
^This.
When the engine in my Protege5 was rebuilt a year ago, the old advice was given. Conventional oil, change it at about 500-1000 miles, again at say 3000 after the rebuild, then follow the factory recommended OCI.
So far, I've put about 22K miles in about 11 months on the rebuild without drama. It may use a quart in the 5-6k interval. I attribute that to my heavy right foot and the 3.5 quart sump capacity
I personally think it does not matter. If synthetic in fact hinders break-in time compared to dino, it will still eventually break in. There isnt a rule that the engine will magically stop the break in process if you put in syn, wear and tear still occures.
My car had less than 300 miles when I dumped the factory fill and had Mobil 1 5w30 put in. 80k miles(2000 roadcourse miles) later, no consumption, no smoke, no issues, 18psi of boost daily, and still going strong.
My car had less than 300 miles when I dumped the factory fill and had Mobil 1 5w30 put in. 80k miles(2000 roadcourse miles) later, no consumption, no smoke, no issues, 18psi of boost daily, and still going strong.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
A
Dino can't really keep up in high performance applications anymore.
You're funny!
Give it a go in a twin turbo Porsche for 15k miles and report back with the results. Would love to see it!
Or a ZR1 on track day, bet you could boil up some nice PYB!
You are right.
Extraordinarily long OCIs like 15,000 miles with/ and /or a hard run turbocharged engine is best with a full synthetic.
But do you also note that not all turbo engine Mfrs require or spec a full synthetic?
Anything putting out any kind of power does.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
A
Dino can't really keep up in high performance applications anymore.
You're funny!
Give it a go in a twin turbo Porsche for 15k miles and report back with the results. Would love to see it!
Or a ZR1 on track day, bet you could boil up some nice PYB!
You are right.
Extraordinarily long OCIs like 15,000 miles with/ and /or a hard run turbocharged engine is best with a full synthetic.
But do you also note that not all turbo engine Mfrs require or spec a full synthetic?
Anything putting out any kind of power does.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
A
Dino can't really keep up in high performance applications anymore.
You're funny!
Give it a go in a twin turbo Porsche for 15k miles and report back with the results. Would love to see it!
Or a ZR1 on track day, bet you could boil up some nice PYB!
You are right.
Extraordinarily long OCIs like 15,000 miles with/ and /or a hard run turbocharged engine is best with a full synthetic.
But do you also note that not all turbo engine Mfrs require or spec a full synthetic?
I know that not all turbocharged gasoline engine manufacturers require synthetic, but my experiences show me that a turbo engine run on conventional will be heavily varnished even if the conventional oil is changed every 3000 miles.
Just because the manual says you can do something doesn't mean you actually can. Just look at the number of engines that were filled with coolant that was supposed to last 5 years, and how many of them actually got 5 years from that coolant.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
A
Dino can't really keep up in high performance applications anymore.
You're funny!
Give it a go in a twin turbo Porsche for 15k miles and report back with the results. Would love to see it!
Or a ZR1 on track day, bet you could boil up some nice PYB!
You are right.
Extraordinarily long OCIs like 15,000 miles with/ and /or a hard run turbocharged engine is best with a full synthetic.
But do you also note that not all turbo engine Mfrs require or spec a full synthetic?
I know that not all turbocharged gasoline engine manufacturers require synthetic, but my experiences show me that a turbo engine run on conventional will be heavily varnished even if the conventional oil is changed every 3000 miles.
Just because the manual says you can do something doesn't mean you actually can. Just look at the number of engines that were filled with coolant that was supposed to last 5 years, and how many of them actually got 5 years from that coolant.
How many? Most of them.
We break in our big inch drag motors on conventional oil, then typically run synthetic. I don't think there would be a difference what oil we run because the change interval is so quick.
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
While different than automotive engines, John Deere, Kohler, and Kawasaki still recommend engine break in on dino or "special" break -in oil (JD).
So, some people still believe in the idea that synthetics are too slippery to achieve proper break in. In the case of John Deere, they are talking about full size tractor engines, not just OPE small engines.
http://www.deere.com/en_US/ag/servicesupport/tips/tractors/common_stories/engine_break-in_oil.html#
"Important: DO NOT use John Deere Plus-50 oil or engine oils meeting API CG4, API CF4, ACEA E3, ACEA E2, or CCMC D5 performance levels during the first 100 hours of operation ( or additional periods of break-in that may be required) of a new or rebuilt engine. These oils will not allow the engine to break-in properly."
This is a very interesting info. This is the first time I've heard that diesel oils could be harmful for break in.
I wonder why that is. Too much detergents competing with anti-wear additives?
While different than automotive engines, John Deere, Kohler, and Kawasaki still recommend engine break in on dino or "special" break -in oil (JD).
So, some people still believe in the idea that synthetics are too slippery to achieve proper break in. In the case of John Deere, they are talking about full size tractor engines, not just OPE small engines.
http://www.deere.com/en_US/ag/servicesupport/tips/tractors/common_stories/engine_break-in_oil.html#
"Important: DO NOT use John Deere Plus-50 oil or engine oils meeting API CG4, API CF4, ACEA E3, ACEA E2, or CCMC D5 performance levels during the first 100 hours of operation ( or additional periods of break-in that may be required) of a new or rebuilt engine. These oils will not allow the engine to break-in properly."
This is a very interesting info. This is the first time I've heard that diesel oils could be harmful for break in.
I wonder why that is. Too much detergents competing with anti-wear additives?
I searched some more and found this:
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1108_camshaft_break_in_guide/viewall.html
The general theme is high ZDDP, low detergents.
Thus, diesel oils with high detergents are not ideal.
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1108_camshaft_break_in_guide/viewall.html
The general theme is high ZDDP, low detergents.
Thus, diesel oils with high detergents are not ideal.
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