Engine Break-In - Found the answer

buster

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Originally Posted by PWMDMD
The real question - does any of the break-in procedure really matter in the real world? I've owned many many cars from many many manufactures and I have never followed the break-in procedure. I drive the cars, I've never had an engine/transmission/moving part give me an issue related to improper break-in, I sell the car and I get a new car.
That's the million dollar question. We don't know.
 
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Originally Posted by PWMDMD
The real question - does any of the break-in procedure really matter in the real world? I've owned many many cars from many many manufactures and I have never followed the break-in procedure. I drive the cars, I've never had an engine/transmission/moving part give me an issue related to improper break-in, I sell the car and I get a new car.
Poor break-in can result in oil consumption and/or the engine will not reach its full potential. The first you'd notice but the vast majority if owners would not notice the second. Of course there's engine break-in, there's vehicle break-in and finally driver break-in (I added this piece).
 

buster

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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
The real question - does any of the break-in procedure really matter in the real world? I've owned many many cars from many many manufactures and I have never followed the break-in procedure. I drive the cars, I've never had an engine/transmission/moving part give me an issue related to improper break-in, I sell the car and I get a new car.
Poor break-in can result in oil consumption and/or the engine will not reach its full potential. The first you'd notice but the vast majority if owners would not notice the second. Of course there's engine break-in, there's vehicle break-in and finally driver break-in (I added this piece).
Are you in the break it in hard camp?
 
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Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
The real question - does any of the break-in procedure really matter in the real world? I've owned many many cars from many many manufactures and I have never followed the break-in procedure. I drive the cars, I've never had an engine/transmission/moving part give me an issue related to improper break-in, I sell the car and I get a new car.
Poor break-in can result in oil consumption and/or the engine will not reach its full potential. The first you'd notice but the vast majority if owners would not notice the second. Of course there's engine break-in, there's vehicle break-in and finally driver break-in (I added this piece).
Are you in the break it in hard camp?
Hard / Soft is somewhat subjective. I'd best describe it as methodical engine loading during both acceleration and deceleration across the rpm range while for the most part staying within the max rpm suggested by the automaker.
 
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Originally Posted by DGXR
Porsche engineer's statements contradict the ages-old method of doing a few full heat cycles, this is probably adapting to modern manufacturing and engineering principles. I keep moderate loads and varying RPM during the first few hundred miles, doing an early oil change, then gradually increasing to maximum power and redline runs at around 2,000 miles. Deceleration (i.e. high vacuum in intake manifold and cylinders) plays a crucial role during the wear-in process.
Right but can you imagine the potential liability by recommending such a thing? "Porsche said I should break-in my engine by downshifting, I didn't know that downshifting into 3 at 80 mph would cause engine damage! My $500/hr attorney is going to have a field day with this."
 

buster

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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
The real question - does any of the break-in procedure really matter in the real world? I've owned many many cars from many many manufactures and I have never followed the break-in procedure. I drive the cars, I've never had an engine/transmission/moving part give me an issue related to improper break-in, I sell the car and I get a new car.
Poor break-in can result in oil consumption and/or the engine will not reach its full potential. The first you'd notice but the vast majority if owners would not notice the second. Of course there's engine break-in, there's vehicle break-in and finally driver break-in (I added this piece).
Are you in the break it in hard camp?
Hard / Soft is somewhat subjective. I'd best describe it as methodical engine loading during both acceleration and deceleration across the rpm range while for the most part staying within the max rpm suggested by the automaker.
Great point. I'm with you as I feel that is a smart approach.
 
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There was a team that built two duplicate motorcycle engines. One broken in "hard", and the other broken in according to manufacturer recommendation. There was no difference between the two engines after breaking in and driving. Just follow manufacturer and you'll be fine.
 
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Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
There was a team that built two duplicate motorcycle engines. One broken in "hard", and the other broken in according to manufacturer recommendation. There was no difference between the two engines after breaking in and driving. Just follow manufacturer and you'll be fine.
Didn't that Mototunes guy claim the exact opposite with regards to motorcycle engines?
 

buster

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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
There was a team that built two duplicate motorcycle engines. One broken in "hard", and the other broken in according to manufacturer recommendation. There was no difference between the two engines after breaking in and driving. Just follow manufacturer and you'll be fine.
Didn't that Mototunes guy claim the exact opposite with regards to motorcycle engines?
Yes.
 
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Years ago, I worked for a company that was involved in camshaft development (and a second company that tested 2 stroke marine racing engines) . They dyno stuff was on the automotive side, I assembled engines with OEM parts and the dyno team ran them through a series of tests. Mostly for emissions and of course to meet target output. My job was to assemble the engines to a specification, time the camshafts and install on the dyno. I also disassembled the engines and measured components for wear. We took no care to break in engines. We started them up, warmed them up to 160 degrees coolant temperature and let-er-rip. Often for long periods of time at specific RPM's at full boost. The parts got hotter than they would in any normal car. So I don't believe the Porsche explanation above. The only thing that could possibly match the loading is towing a heavy load up a long hill. Not once did I see something wrong internally. Bearings, rings, cylinders and valves always looked perfect. It is hard to convey just how insignificant any wear was, and how brutal the dyno sessions were. All this talk about break in really leads me to believe that rings "seat" rapidly under load and then normal rates of wear occur. No other parts "break in". It's interesting to note that aircraft piston engine break-in includes full power takeoff and climb. Monitoring temps and watching the CHT's come down after a few minutes. At which point the rings are said to be seated and break in complete.
 
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
The real question - does any of the break-in procedure really matter in the real world? I've owned many many cars from many many manufactures and I have never followed the break-in procedure. I drive the cars, I've never had an engine/transmission/moving part give me an issue related to improper break-in, I sell the car and I get a new car.
Poor break-in can result in oil consumption and/or the engine will not reach its full potential. The first you'd notice but the vast majority if owners would not notice the second. Of course there's engine break-in, there's vehicle break-in and finally driver break-in (I added this piece).
FWIW, one of the strongest-running 5.0 Mustangs I ever saw was probably run in the hardest: it was a police car! I was told by several engine builders that is a GOOD thing: run a new engine hard to break it in. Don't abuse it, but DEFINITELY don't baby it. One also said to do plenty of compression braking with it.
 
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Originally Posted by Cujet
Years ago, I worked for a company that was involved in camshaft development (and a second company that tested 2 stroke marine racing engines) . They dyno stuff was on the automotive side, I assembled engines with OEM parts and the dyno team ran them through a series of tests. Mostly for emissions and of course to meet target output. My job was to assemble the engines to a specification, time the camshafts and install on the dyno. I also disassembled the engines and measured components for wear. We took no care to break in engines. We started them up, warmed them up to 160 degrees coolant temperature and let-er-rip. Often for long periods of time at specific RPM's at full boost. The parts got hotter than they would in any normal car. So I don't believe the Porsche explanation above. The only thing that could possibly match the loading is towing a heavy load up a long hill. Not once did I see something wrong internally. Bearings, rings, cylinders and valves always looked perfect. It is hard to convey just how insignificant any wear was, and how brutal the dyno sessions were. All this talk about break in really leads me to believe that rings "seat" rapidly under load and then normal rates of wear occur. No other parts "break in". It's interesting to note that aircraft piston engine break-in includes full power takeoff and climb. Monitoring temps and watching the CHT's come down after a few minutes. At which point the rings are said to be seated and break in complete.
For decades, Porsche top-ended every new car right off the assembly line.
 
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Something that is frustrating to me...but I understand... As a market leading manufacturer of hydraulic pumps, we know EXACTLY the best way to break in our products for both efficiency and longevity. We work with our customers to make sure when they do testing that they either follow our procedure, or we break them in before we send them. Why on Earth is this such a secret for such a HUGE market? Another thought...there is no break-in for off highway equipment (tractors, dozers, skid steers, back-hoes, etc.). You buy it and put it straight to work. Those machines see duty cycles that are orders of magnitude greater than what a consumer grade car or truck would see. I realize the design margin is a bit higher for these machines...but they not only work harder, but for many thousands of hours longer than a car you or I might drive. Personally when I get a new (anything) with an engine, I explore the rev-range fully from the get-go. I only use part throttle for the first several hours...but it doesn't take long to be using the full power capabilities of the engine. I think the key is to make sure it is fully warmed up, and to avoid full throttle at less than 50% redline. To this day, I won't go over 50% throttle and 50% of redline until an engine is fully warmed up...but I NEVER baby and engine after it is warmed up and ready to go. I have NEVER owned an oil burner...ever.
 

buster

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Originally Posted by Cujet
Years ago, I worked for a company that was involved in camshaft development (and a second company that tested 2 stroke marine racing engines) . They dyno stuff was on the automotive side, I assembled engines with OEM parts and the dyno team ran them through a series of tests. Mostly for emissions and of course to meet target output. My job was to assemble the engines to a specification, time the camshafts and install on the dyno. I also disassembled the engines and measured components for wear. We took no care to break in engines. We started them up, warmed them up to 160 degrees coolant temperature and let-er-rip. Often for long periods of time at specific RPM's at full boost. The parts got hotter than they would in any normal car. So I don't believe the Porsche explanation above. The only thing that could possibly match the loading is towing a heavy load up a long hill. Not once did I see something wrong internally. Bearings, rings, cylinders and valves always looked perfect. It is hard to convey just how insignificant any wear was, and how brutal the dyno sessions were. All this talk about break in really leads me to believe that rings "seat" rapidly under load and then normal rates of wear occur. No other parts "break in". It's interesting to note that aircraft piston engine break-in includes full power takeoff and climb. Monitoring temps and watching the CHT's come down after a few minutes. At which point the rings are said to be seated and break in complete.
Hard to argue with what you experienced. You saw it firsthand. I'm more of a believer in giving it a decent amount of throttle from the beginning. I think the issue can be when you run an engine at full throttle for "long" periods of time. That can create excess heat which is what some say the problem is. Hot spots can create uneven wear patterns. I have to say from my experience, the cars that consumed oil were the ones I broke-in too gently. However, it's hard to say because they were also known to consume oil due to the low tension piston rings (Honda/Toyota). I picked up my truck with 63 miles. Drove it home for about 30 miles varying the rpms from 3-4k, often giving it 40% throttle. I did the same up until 1,200 miles which is what Nissan suggests. I did a few WOT runs this week. So far no oil consumption. The 4.0L though isn't known to burn oil. I think a common sense approach is best. The worst approach is to baby it. If you go hard on it, I believe letting it cool down is what you should do.
 

buster

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Originally Posted by DriveHard
Something that is frustrating to me...but I understand... As a market leading manufacturer of hydraulic pumps, we know EXACTLY the best way to break in our products for both efficiency and longevity. We work with our customers to make sure when they do testing that they either follow our procedure, or we break them in before we send them. Why on Earth is this such a secret for such a HUGE market? Another thought...there is no break-in for off highway equipment (tractors, dozers, skid steers, back-hoes, etc.). You buy it and put it straight to work. Those machines see duty cycles that are orders of magnitude greater than what a consumer grade car or truck would see. I realize the design margin is a bit higher for these machines...but they not only work harder, but for many thousands of hours longer than a car you or I might drive. Personally when I get a new (anything) with an engine, I explore the rev-range fully from the get-go. I only use part throttle for the first several hours...but it doesn't take long to be using the full power capabilities of the engine. I think the key is to make sure it is fully warmed up, and to avoid full throttle at less than 50% redline. To this day, I won't go over 50% throttle and 50% of redline until an engine is fully warmed up...but I NEVER baby and engine after it is warmed up and ready to go. I have NEVER owned an oil burner...ever.
Makes sense. I agree. What irritates me is why don't automotive engineers that write the manuals ACTUALLY tell us their reasoning? It's ridiculous. It either is good or not good.
 
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Originally Posted by buster
What irritates me is why don't automotive engineers that write the manuals ACTUALLY tell us their reasoning? It's ridiculous. It either is good or not good.
Liability.
 

buster

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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by buster
What irritates me is why don't automotive engineers that write the manuals ACTUALLY tell us their reasoning? It's ridiculous. It either is good or not good.
Liability.
I think you're right. Someone on here years ago had a relative that was a Toyota engineer and that's exactly what he said.
 
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https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/busting-engine-break-in-myth/ An interesting test of two identical engines. No difference in wear, compression, condition or oil color despite two vastly different break in methods. The motorcycle test did bring up a very good set of points though. Taking it easy on a motorcycle for the first few rides, when new gives you time to learn how it turns, handles, shifts and stops along with time to scrub in the tires.
 
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Pew

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Originally Posted by DriveHard
As a market leading manufacturer of hydraulic pumps, we know EXACTLY the best way to break in our products for both efficiency and longevity. We work with our customers to make sure when they do testing that they either follow our procedure, or we break them in before we send them. Why on Earth is this such a secret for such a HUGE market?.
I'm thinking it's because it's such a huge market with restrictions that can be extreme and you need to kind of make a one-size-fits-all car unless you're a manufacture like McLaren or Ferrari that targets specific people. You have 70 year old Aunt Karen that goes out and buys a Mustang GT and doesn't care (or even know of) the break-in procedure and takes the car out to the local grocery store and church. Then you have Billy Bad-[censored] on the other spectrum that does a burn out the moment he gets out of the dealer lot. Then all the manufacturing process and hands that have assembled the car, who knows what is what.
 
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