Difference between M1 0w30 afe and 0w30 esp?

[Fahrvergnügen]

Oddly enough, my does say "requires". I don't know if that's legally binding if the engine every gave up the ghost, but I haven't seen many say that before.

View attachment 126280

Read the top and then read the if 0w20 is not available.

 

[Fahrvergnügen]

If your owner's manual recommends SAE 0W-20, you will be fine it. Use a good API-SP-rated SAE 0W-20 such as Castrol Edge Extended-Performance 0W-20 SP. It also has Euro-OEM approvals if it makes you feel more confident about it. Other API-SP-rated extended-performance 0W-20 oils should be good, too.

If you read my post before yours, you will see that more than half of the Euro oils that didn't have an API-SP rating flunked the API-SP valvetrain and timing-chain wear tests, and 90% of these oils are thick ACEA-A3/B4 full-SAPS and thick ACEA-C3 mid-SAPS oils. A thicker oil and/or more SAPS do not automatically mean more protection against wear. A well-balanced additive package is crucial.

So why does everywhere outside USA, use thicker oil from 0w30 to 15w40 for the same engine and is not API??

 

[Alien]

No vehicles ‘require’ API SN/SN PLUS. That is only in the USA it is recommended, but not required.

Not true. From my Ford Manual:

API SN and the API certification “starburst” symbol on the front label stating “American Petroleum Institute Certified for Gasoline Engines” mark is required per the manual.

Quotes from the manual:

“SN/SP oils without a Starburst symbol can be harmful to your vehicles catalyst and reduce fuel economy.”

“If you use oil and fluids that do not meet the defined specification and viscosity grade, this may lead to component damage which is not covered by the vehicle warranty.”

That is no recommendation. It is a requirement if you value warranty service. They are very serious about this.

 

[PimTac]

So why does everywhere outside USA, use thicker oil from 0w30 to 15w40 for the same engine and is not API??

That’s a tired argument. You don’t like 0W-20 so you try to extrapolate a reason to use a higher grade.

 

[kschachn]

Not true. From my Ford Manual:

API SN and the API certification “starburst” symbol on the front label stating “American Petroleum Institute Certified for Gasoline Engines” mark is required per the manual.

Quotes from the manual:

“SN/SP oils without a Starburst symbol can be harmful to your vehicles catalyst and reduce fuel economy.”

“If you use oil and fluids that do not meet the defined specification and viscosity grade, this may lead to component damage which is not covered by the vehicle warranty.”

That is no recommendation. It is a requirement if you value warranty service. They are very serious about this.

But the seriousness only comes into play (per the manual) when there is component damage. No engine is damaged by an oil with a somewhat higher HT/HS. Film thickness protects, not damages. And all of this can be obtained with a low SAPS oil to protect the catalyst.

Other than the slight fuel economy increase there are no benefits of thinner oils and they do not “protect better” or are otherwise beneficial in any way that protects the warranty. Despite how desperate the CAFE mandated language may appear the warranty is not tied to a specific listed grade. It is tied to damage.

 

[Alien]

But the seriousness only comes into play (per the manual) when there is component damage. No engine is damaged by an oil with a somewhat higher HT/HS. Film thickness protects, not damages. And all of this can be obtained with a low SAPS oil to protect the catalyst.

Other than the slight fuel economy increase there are no benefits of thinner oils and they do not “protect better” or are otherwise beneficial in any way that protects the warranty. Despite how desperate the CAFE mandated language may appear the warranty is not tied to a specific listed grade. It is tied to damage.

The subject of whether you have to follow manufacturer's requirements to obtain warranty service has been beat to death elsewhere on BITOG forums. All I was trying to do is correct is the misinformation that no vehicle manufactures actually require API approved oil. Ford does.

 

[kschachn]

The subject of whether you have to follow manufacturer's requirements to obtain warranty service has been beat to death elsewhere on BITOG forums. All I was trying to do is correct is the misinformation that no vehicle manufactures actually require API approved oil. Ford does.

Actually they don’t either. Nowhere in that statement do they say “use of any oil that is not API licensed will void your warranty.” Again they really only talk about an oil that damages the engine.

 

[Alien]

Actually they don’t either. Nowhere in that statement do they say “use of any oil that is not API licensed will void your warranty.” Again they really only talk about an oil that damages the engine.

They do. They say "required". The never use the word "recommended", at was claimed. You are trying to argue about whether and how they will enforce the requirement, which is OT and has been beat to death elsewhere.

 

[edyvw]

• We do not even know if the oil passed that test because the MB LSPI spec did not come until ~ 2019.
• It is not the only LSPI test.
• We do not know how strict is that test.
• Passing a test does not mean the oil passed it in flying colors—it could have barely passed it.
• It is a moot issue because no additive company is going to insist on all-calcium oils, and these oils will all have reduced calcium and added magnesium with API-SP rating soon if not already.
• It is a moot issue because these all-calcium oils are now a thing of the past.

Yes we do know.
You are AGAIN involved in speculation.
Mercedes Benz has toughest oil performance tests in industry.
2019 introduction means oil blenders knew for few years test is coming. There is no such thing as several years of grace period. Company I worked for had oil in VW for testing before VW504.00/507.00 was officially introduced. You clearly don’t know how this industry works in real life.

 

[kschachn]

They do. They say "required". The never use the word "recommended", at was claimed. You are trying to argue about whether and how they will enforce the requirement, which is OT and has been beat to death elsewhere.

Because you’re still trying to argue that it says the warranty is predicated on API licensed oil which it is not. It doesn’t say that anywhere in the text you posted. It’s predicated on an oil that causes damage.

 

[edyvw]

That’s a tired argument. You don’t like 0W-20 so you try to extrapolate a reason to use a higher grade.

All manufacturers use higher HTHS bcs. emissions and consumption is calculated differently. Toyota for this particular engine we are taking about requires ACEA C3 oils in Europe.
It is also telling that new 2.4T engine requires at minimum (bcs. Toyota in manual has wording that under hard exploitation heavier oil can be used) 0W20, not 0W16. Which means that 0W20 is minimum they couldn’t go below. Which is telling.

 

[Alien]

Re: "Because you’re still trying to argue that it says the warranty is predicated on API licensed oil which it is not. It doesn’t say that anywhere in the text you posted. It’s predicated on an oil that causes damage."

"Predicated"? @Fahrvergnügen did not use that word. Ford's manual does no use that word. I did not use that word. We are talking about the words "required" vs. "recommended".

 

[Fahrvergnügen]

The subject of whether you have to follow manufacturer's requirements to obtain warranty service has been beat to death elsewhere on BITOG forums. All I was trying to do is correct is the misinformation that no vehicle manufactures actually require API approved oil. Ford does.

So…… I was a tech at ford for years and left in 2021. We have never voided warranty for oil. We told customers not to follow the oil life monitor, but to change the oil at 5,000 miles and also the lube techs were actually told to put a 5,000 mile sticker in car. Ford uses synthetic blend motorcraft oil.

 

[Gokhan]

That’s a tired argument. You don’t like 0W-20 so you try to extrapolate a reason to use a higher grade.

Yes, it is a very tired argument!

If it would prove anything, it would only prove that the SAE viscosity and certifications of the oil you use do not matter much, which is partly true for any kind of vehicle and any kind of certification.

I checked the latest recommendations in other countries, and they no longer recommend thicker than SAE 5W-30 for the new Toyota Corolla, and they clearly mark SAE 0W-16 as being the preferred viscosity. They also add that "If SAE 0W-16 couldn't be found, you can use SAE 0W-20; however, SAE 0W-16 should be used in the next oil change." They also require API SN or above. This is not really different than what is in the US owner's manuals.

In my opinion, the reason why they add a few thicker SAE viscosity grades in foreign countries is because it is hard to find SAE 0W-20 oils in many countries, let alone SAE 0W-16.

If you want to dwell into this really tired argument, here are foreign Toyota owner's manuals:

https://turkiye.toyota.com.tr/Kullanici_El_Kitabi/modeller/corolla.html

 

[kschachn]

I checked the latest recommendations in other countries, and they no longer recommend thicker than SAE 5W-30 for the new Toyota Corolla, and they clearly mark SAE 0W-16 as being the preferred viscosity. They also add that "If SAE 0W-16 couldn't be found, you can use SAE 0W-20; however, SAE 0W-16 should be used in the next oil change." They also require API SN or above. This is not really different than what is in the US owner's manuals.

In my opinion, the reason why they add a few thicker SAE viscosity grades in foreign countries is because it is hard to find SAE 0W-20 oils in many countries, let alone SAE 0W-16.

You’re being disingenuous here since I know you understand why the language is in the manual in the first place, and why it is worded exactly the way it is. It has nothing to do with lower viscosity oils being mechanically better or superior to ones with a higher viscosity. The singular advantage is fuel economy and anything else is a disadvantage that must be managed to prevent excessive wear.

The one and only basis for that grade being preferred is fuel economy.

 

[Gokhan]

You’re being disingenuous here since I know you understand why the language is in the manual in the first place

Google Translate AI works very well. Copy and paste into it.

 

[Fahrvergnügen]

Yes, it is a very tired argument!

If it would prove anything, it would only prove that the SAE viscosity and certifications of the oil you use do not matter much, which is partly true for any kind of vehicle and any kind of certification.

I checked the latest recommendations in other countries, and they no longer recommend thicker than SAE 5W-30 for the new Toyota Corolla, and they clearly mark SAE 0W-16 as being the preferred viscosity. They also add that "If SAE 0W-16 couldn't be found, you can use SAE 0W-20; however, SAE 0W-16 should be used in the next oil change." They also require API SN or above. This is not really different than what is in the US owner's manuals.

In my opinion, the reason why they add a few thicker SAE viscosity grades in foreign countries is because it is hard to find SAE 0W-20 oils in many countries, let alone SAE 0W-16.

If you want to dwell into this really tired argument, here are foreign Toyota owner's manuals:

https://turkiye.toyota.com.tr/Kullanici_El_Kitabi/modeller/corolla.html

2021 Honda accord owners manual for UK.
Take notice the star1 at bottom for 0w20 is only for fuel efficiency.

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

delete

 

[Fahrvergnügen]

That’s a tired argument. You don’t like 0W-20 so you try to extrapolate a reason to use a higher grade.

With a direct injected turbo or direct injected engine period is foolish to run a 0w20 in engines that have fuel dilution which is the nature of these engines. So now you have an oil that has sheared down to a 10 weight or less. The 0w20 is only for CAFE, as other members have stated. 0w20 is not in the best interest of engine protection only for fuel savings period the end. Use the thicker oil and change oil at 5000 miles.

 

[Gokhan]

2021 Honda accord owners manual for UK.
Take notice the star1 at bottom for 0w20 is only for fuel efficiency.
View attachment 126372

You conveniently inserted the word "only" to try to prove your claim.

This recommendation even contradicts itself. Honda Genuine Engine Oil Type 2.0 is SAE 0W-20, which has a lower HTHS viscosity than the ACEA-C2 minimum of 2.9 cP.

Again, the reason for varying recommendations in different localities is oil availability. In Europe, most oils are ACEA, and SAE 0W-20 is hard to find—in this case, the owner is simply being referred to the Honda dealer to find it.