Difference Between Euro and non-Euro Oils?

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37
Location
Seattle, WA
Why is there often a distinction between European and non-Euro oils? Why would two seemingly similar engines (in my case, a former VW/Audi 2.0T DI and a Hyundai/Kia 2.0T DI) have different oil needs? Obviously there are differences in design details, but both would appear to put the same stress on their lubricant in similar vehicles when driven similarly. I'm only asking this in one forum, since many of the BITOG seniors contribute to both forums.
 

DFrost

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Messages
37
Location
Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Are oil change intervals different?
In the case of the engines I mentioned, yes, mfg specified oci is different - 10K from Audi (but 5-6K was my oci based on UOA), 5k for Hyundai/Kia. M1 0W-40 was the oil of choice from my Audi dealer and me, and VW502/505 was "required". H/K doesn't say anything about synthetic, just API, ACEA and ILSAC requirements.
 
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19,528
Location
Lake Forest, CA
Originally Posted By: Gene K
In many cases higher HTHS (For extended high speed and high oil temp operation) and extended drain capability.
I agree. It's almost impossible to find any place in North America that a driver can do 130-150+ MPH for hours, but it's easy do so in Autobahn. Also, OCI of 13-15k miles or longer is the norm in Europe. Here, most people drives at less than 100 MPH most of the times, and do 5-6k miles OCI. We don't need no stinky Euro formula !
 
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17,301
Location
OH
European car brands typically require the same oil standards in all markets. Asian and US car brands typically don't. In the US, you can't drive really hard on the road for very long in most of the country, due to congestion and enforcement. If you track the car, you're on your own wrt oil requirements and you void the warranty. In the US, motor oil is cheap (by world standards) and most owners don't run an oil more than 5-6K. If you look at UOAs of API spec oils with no Euro specs claimed, they're often pretty well done after 5-6K, at least judging by residual TBN and shearing below grade. I consider TBN and viscosity more significant than wear metals as measured by a typical UOA, given the limitations of a typical UOA in actually measuring engine wear. Yes, there are many pretty UOAs of GM and Honda products on long drains on API spec oils wrt wear metals measured, but what about residual TBN and vis? For this reason, I use API spec oils and change them at 5-6K. I suspect that API spec oils claiming to meet A3, for example, probably meet the HTHS requirement, but not the long life requirement. In Europe, motor oil is very expensive, so long drains are more of a requirement than a virtue or a challenge, and many roads allow sustained high speeds. There was a member on this site who posted various UOAs of cars requiring Euro spec oils running ordinary Grp III on shorter than MM intervals. The UOAs looked really good. In US service, on 5-6K change intervals, you could probably use any Grp III 5W-30 in most Euro cars with no problems, although I personally wouldn't. There is even a member here who's run 20 grade M1 (don't remember whether it's 5W- or 0W-) in his Mercedes for at least a couple of years, and he has no ill effects to report. Maybe owners should consider a Euro spec oil for their turbo/DI Hyundais? I believe M1 0W-40 is within the grades required for the engine.
 
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405
Location
So Cal, USA
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Maybe owners should consider a Euro spec oil for their turbo/DI Hyundais? I believe M1 0W-40 is within the grades required for the engine.
I sure am!
 
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19,528
Location
Lake Forest, CA
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
There is even a member here who's run 20 grade M1 (don't remember whether it's 5W- or 0W-) in his Mercedes for at least a couple of years, and he has no ill effects to report.
Is it me or someone else ? I had been using various xW20 in my E430 since summer 2008. The car had PP 5W20, M1 0W20, Synpower 5W20. The engine is much quieter with xW20 than with M1 0W40, quicker throttle response and better MPG to boost. What I don't know for sure is why it doesn't consume any oil with any xW20 or with M1 0W40. Now, I have good experience with synthetic xW20 in my E430, it doesn't mean I will recommend other MB owners use the same thin oil, it is possible that my particular car likes thin oil and other MB engines don't run well with it. What I learned is, you never know what will happen unless you try it yourself and what works for me may not work for someone else.
 
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17,301
Location
OH
It was you I was thinking of. I thought that you had only used a 20 grade M1, but you've actually used a few 20 grade syns. If your MB V-8 is happy on a 20 in the hot conditions in which you have driven it, I suspect all of the same generation would be. How long do you run a 20 in this engine? Congrats for having experimented with your own engine. You seem to have had good results.
 
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437
Location
Michigan
is there anything wrong with using euro formulas in engines that don't require them? Just as long as the viscosity is in the right area?
 
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8,598
Location
Florida
Originally Posted By: MrRPM
is there anything wrong with using euro formulas in engines that don't require them? Just as long as the viscosity is in the right area?
It works fine in many cases. Just look at how many people get good results from GC 0w30. That in mind, I see some oils I am not sure about. In Pep Boys, I see some M1 oils formulated for certain European cars, and I see no API or ILSAC markings, so I wonder what the oil doesn't have. However, the oil may meet those API and ILSAC standards, the manufacturer just doesn't feel the need to pay for testing.
 
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17,301
Location
OH
Originally Posted By: MrRPM
is there anything wrong with using euro formulas in engines that don't require them? Just as long as the viscosity is in the right area?
Not a simple question. An SAE 0W-30 API SL Euro spec oil, like Castrol Syntec 0W-30, AKA GC is nothing like M1 0W-30. It is considerably thicker at operating temperature, but it also meets a variety of Euro specs, while M1 0W-30 doesn't. Using a Euro spec oil in an application not requiring it will cause no harm. It may make the engine seem smoother and quieter, since it is a thicker oil without regard to the SAE grade, and it may also increase fuel consumption a bit for the same reason. Most Euro specs call for HTHSV of at least 3.5, while most American 30 grades are nowhere near that thick at high temperatures. Try either GC or M1 0W-40, or both. See what happens. You won't do any harm.
 
Messages
437
Location
Michigan
not to hi-jack the thread or anything but im gonna try M1 0w-40 in my jeep 4.0 I6. I want a synthetic 40 weight with a good anti-wear add pack and want it to be good for very cold Michigan winters. I have used M1 TDT 5w-40 with good results and now I want to try 0w-40 for winter and may just use it all year.
 
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19,528
Location
Lake Forest, CA
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
It was you I was thinking of. I thought that you had only used a 20 grade M1, but you've actually used a few 20 grade syns. If your MB V-8 is happy on a 20 in the hot conditions in which you have driven it, I suspect all of the same generation would be. How long do you run a 20 in this engine? Congrats for having experimented with your own engine. You seem to have had good results.
I drove the car to Vegas in 3-4 summers, the ambient temperature was as high as 128F while going up long 10-12 miles steep hills of about 7-10 degree at more than 90 MPH, the coolant temp was around 200-205F with xW20 and it was 215-220F with M1 0W40. I think thinner oil remove heat faster than thicker oil therefore coolant temperature is with similar driving conditions. The OCI is with xW20 is the same with M1 0W40 at 10-12 months/11-13k miles. The cartridge oil filter didn't have any debris with either oil at OCI. As of now, all the oils in my stash are various brand xW20, I have PU and Synpower 5W20 and M1 0W20 only.
 
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3,610
Location
Ponte Vedra Beach, FL
I've seen some of those oils also on store shelves with the name "Racing" on the bottle. However, it is always good to look on the front of the bottle for the API Starburst stating that is for use in gasoline engines if that is your intended purpose. Also, check the back of the bottle to insure that the oil you select for your application has the MFG requirements listed. Right now, I have a quart of Valvoline, SynPower, Full Synthetic, MST, 5w-40, European Blend, in front of me. It has the API Starburst on the front of the bottle and the following MFG specifications: API-SN/SM, CF, ACEA A3/B3-04, C3-08 Services And all pending API, ILSAC categories Additional Specifications: VW 520.00, 505.00, 506.01, MB 229.51, BMW LL-04, Porsche A40. Yes....IMO...you can run this oil in gasoline engines.
Originally Posted By: artificialist
Originally Posted By: MrRPM
is there anything wrong with using euro formulas in engines that don't require them? Just as long as the viscosity is in the right area?
It works fine in many cases. Just look at how many people get good results from GC 0w30. That in mind, I see some oils I am not sure about. In Pep Boys, I see some M1 oils formulated for certain European cars, and I see no API or ILSAC markings, so I wonder what the oil doesn't have. However, the oil may meet those API and ILSAC standards, the manufacturer just doesn't feel the need to pay for testing.
 
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