Deposts on DI engine valves

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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: timeau
http://crcindustries.com/auto/intake-valve-cleaner.php

Has anyone actually used this cleaner and has it removed DI valve deposits? Just curious...


I did try this in my DIT Forester and it seemed like SOMETHING happened, but I don't have internal before/after pics.

I went ahead and tried it because the plugs I had replaced during the LSPI recall (at 40kmiles) looked fairly dirty.

I tried to spray it in past the MAF sensor with the airbox open and did not do a good job, as I had to clean the MAF the next day to get the car running properly. Everything went fine during the application and my daughter did not have to do anything to keep the engine from stalling. After the 1 hour soak, the car belched big plumes of white smoke for a while...but the car also hesitated severely twice AND I got a nasty ball bearings thrown in a coffee can sound when that happened. Had some hesitation issues for a day after that until I cleaned the MAF sensor, now the car is running great. Not sure if the nasty metallic sound was due to the cleaning or the dirty/fouled MAF, I never want to hear that again!

I guess I would have to figure out how to spray it into the throttle body if I wanted to use this cleaner again, I had a stupid idea about pulling the MAF sensor out and spraying through the opening for it but realized the car will probably not run very well with the sensor hanging out in free air!

I figure the massive white smoke must have meant something got cleaned, as I did not see it during the initial application (it was not just the cleaner itself being combusted). I have no proof of that supposition, though.
 
I have not had a DI related issue in my fleet so far. I have Ford and GM 2013-2014 vehicles with between 40-90K miles. The lower miles (3.5 EB) may get 900 miles a month with constant short trips. The higher miles (GM 3.6 and Ford 3.5) are all 4000K+/mo highway miles. They do not get premium nor "fancy" oil. Just whatever fleet semi-syn that purchasing acquires.

I see a LOT of variation with DI issues so I am wondering if the DI/Carbon is slightly spurious. In this case it is DI plus EGR. Something else going on that is compounding things. Poor gas quality? Tubro-related/tuning abuse? I bet poorly functioning emission systems. VW's early issues were related to DI AND recirculating EGR systems

I will say that GM DI appears to be a non-issue and has been around for a while. VW based systems are an issue, Hyundai - has nowhere near the issues of VW. Ford, maybe but I think it is a total package issue. The number of DI sold to the number of DI issues is a lot smaller than alarmist claim. I think MPFI helped when there as an issue that DI can not cover but DI is not the issue in and of itself.

I have a Hyundai GDi and was not worried about the GDi during purchase. One thing about the Hyundai system I heard is that it should hold the intake valve open during start-up to allow a little fuel-wash onto outside of the intake valves. Thus it accomplishes the same thing as additional injectors.
 
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
I have not had a DI related issue in my fleet so far. I have Ford and GM 2013-2014 vehicles with between 40-90K miles. The lower miles (3.5 EB) may get 900 miles a month with constant short trips. The higher miles (GM 3.6 and Ford 3.5) are all 4000K+/mo highway miles. They do not get premium nor "fancy" oil. Just whatever fleet semi-syn that purchasing acquires.

I see a LOT of variation with DI issues so I am wondering if the DI/Carbon is slightly spurious. In this case it is DI plus EGR. Something else going on that is compounding things. Poor gas quality? Tubro-related/tuning abuse? I bet poorly functioning emission systems. VW's early issues were related to DI AND recirculating EGR systems

I will say that GM DI appears to be a non-issue and has been around for a while. VW based systems are an issue, Hyundai - has nowhere near the issues of VW. Ford, maybe but I think it is a total package issue. The number of DI sold to the number of DI issues is a lot smaller than alarmist claim. I think MPFI helped when there as an issue that DI can not cover but DI is not the issue in and of itself.

I have a Hyundai GDi and was not worried about the GDi during purchase. One thing about the Hyundai system I heard is that it should hold the intake valve open during start-up to allow a little fuel-wash onto outside of the intake valves. Thus it accomplishes the same thing as additional injectors.



Ford F-150 Ecoboost Carbon Buildup:

 
I know this has been discussed before but... how much would a set of catch cans help that F150 with all the buildup? I know on my cars (non DI) the catch cans catch a considerable amount of fluid. In cars with DI there is nothing to clear off the valves from all that fluid being sucked in, so stopping, or at least lessening that must help quite a bit right?
 
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
I have not had a DI related issue in my fleet so far. I have Ford and GM 2013-2014 vehicles with between 40-90K miles. The lower miles (3.5 EB) may get 900 miles a month with constant short trips. The higher miles (GM 3.6 and Ford 3.5) are all 4000K+/mo highway miles. They do not get premium nor "fancy" oil. Just whatever fleet semi-syn that purchasing acquires.

I see a LOT of variation with DI issues so I am wondering if the DI/Carbon is slightly spurious. In this case it is DI plus EGR. Something else going on that is compounding things. Poor gas quality? Tubro-related/tuning abuse? I bet poorly functioning emission systems. VW's early issues were related to DI AND recirculating EGR systems

I will say that GM DI appears to be a non-issue and has been around for a while. VW based systems are an issue, Hyundai - has nowhere near the issues of VW. Ford, maybe but I think it is a total package issue. The number of DI sold to the number of DI issues is a lot smaller than alarmist claim. I think MPFI helped when there as an issue that DI can not cover but DI is not the issue in and of itself.

I have a Hyundai GDi and was not worried about the GDi during purchase. One thing about the Hyundai system I heard is that it should hold the intake valve open during start-up to allow a little fuel-wash onto outside of the intake valves. Thus it accomplishes the same thing as additional injectors.



Ford F-150 Ecoboost Carbon Buildup:




Ouch.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
I have not had a DI related issue in my fleet so far. I have Ford and GM 2013-2014 vehicles with between 40-90K miles. The lower miles (3.5 EB) may get 900 miles a month with constant short trips. The higher miles (GM 3.6 and Ford 3.5) are all 4000K+/mo highway miles. They do not get premium nor "fancy" oil. Just whatever fleet semi-syn that purchasing acquires.

I see a LOT of variation with DI issues so I am wondering if the DI/Carbon is slightly spurious. In this case it is DI plus EGR. Something else going on that is compounding things. Poor gas quality? Tubro-related/tuning abuse? I bet poorly functioning emission systems. VW's early issues were related to DI AND recirculating EGR systems

I will say that GM DI appears to be a non-issue and has been around for a while. VW based systems are an issue, Hyundai - has nowhere near the issues of VW. Ford, maybe but I think it is a total package issue. The number of DI sold to the number of DI issues is a lot smaller than alarmist claim. I think MPFI helped when there as an issue that DI can not cover but DI is not the issue in and of itself.

I have a Hyundai GDi and was not worried about the GDi during purchase. One thing about the Hyundai system I heard is that it should hold the intake valve open during start-up to allow a little fuel-wash onto outside of the intake valves. Thus it accomplishes the same thing as additional injectors.



Ford F-150 Ecoboost Carbon Buildup:




Ouch.


Yikes
 
DI is a clean technology not associated with deposits.
The sole reason for IVDs is the introduction of dry sooty exhaust gas and wet oily PCV vapour combining in an otherwise dry manifold.

The options are to install a wet manifold or divert PCV and EGR away from the inlet.

Cue the cries of legalities...
 
I have a 2007 Audi 3.2 which currently has 104k miles on it and as of today have no issues. I have read to drive it hard or drive it easy will help with the problem. That tells me that no one knows if either helps or contributes to the issue. I myself drive it easily and get 24-26mpg on my weekly commute which I think is great for an AWD car which weighs 4k lbs and a/c on all the time. I am happy with this technology.
 
I'm not sure I understand how driving hard would eliminate the buildup. Wouldn't it actually cause more of the oil vapor to be sucked into the intake? Clearly automakers have realized its a problem, as a few have added secondary injectors. The new F150 for example has this.
 
Originally Posted By: HemiHawk
I'm not sure I understand how driving hard would eliminate the buildup. Wouldn't it actually cause more of the oil vapor to be sucked into the intake?


The reasoning is that by driving hard (for extended periods), you get the engine internals hot enough to burn off the deposits. Whether that's truly what happens, I don't know.
 
Originally Posted By: HemiHawk
I'm not sure I understand how driving hard would eliminate the buildup. Wouldn't it actually cause more of the oil vapor to be sucked into the intake? Clearly automakers have realized its a problem, as a few have added secondary injectors. The new F150 for example has this.


While having an extra injector or two in the intake may help with valve deposits it is not the reason the Mfgrs use them. They are there to help with the part throttle cylinder filling issues that DI engines can have under certain conditions.

Many autos with DI have zero problems even at high mileage. Some still exhibit build up. So some Mfgrs have it figured out while some don't.

All hard driving does is heat up the valve enough to burn off the deposits per Mazda. There is no guarantee this will work on every engine configuration though...
 
I owned a frontier with the 4.0 direct injection engine. The engine was great, although noisy on start up with the timing chain BUT here is something you do not ever do with a DI engine:

NEVER EVER EVER spray any cleaner, such as seafoam down the intake.

Here is why: If you do that, all those deposits that has built up, mostly carbon, will break loose, go down the exhaust and screw up your cats. With multiport you are getting constant wash by the fuel and the cats can handle a little carbon at a time, but not a lot at once, gets coated and boom, their done. Now is this possible if you don't squirt anything down the intake, to a degree yes, if enough built up to crust away and head on down the exhaust valve but not likely enough as one time to create a cat issue. I learned that the hard way, messed up both my cats at the same time squirting that [censored] down the intake. So in this case its best just to leave well enough alone unless you want to physically remove the heads and clean them that way.

Side note: there were a few makes some time ago, not recent, that used a reservoir that you kept filled with fluid, meant specifically for DI valve cleaning by trickling some fluid in as the engine runs to keep valves clean. People didn't pay attention to keep the tank full so it went bye bye. The tech is there for it, just not being used.
 
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Nothing but a manual cleaning will remove intake valve deposits.

Thats not quite right. Water injection will clean the valves, pistons, head and exhaust. So clean that they will look like they have no miles on them. W/I has been around for years(WW2 airplanes) and race cars for decades. I have used it in street cars since the 70's. Have it turn on with WOT and in no time all the deposits will be gone.
But if one never goes WOT the W/I will not turn on and clean the engine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engine)

ROD
 
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Originally Posted By: rrounds
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Nothing but a manual cleaning will remove intake valve deposits.

Thats not quite right. Water injection will clean the valves, pistons, head and exhaust. So clean that they will look like they have no miles on them. W/I has been around for years(WW2 airplanes) and race cars for decades. I have used it in street cars since the 70's. Have it turn on with WOT and in no time all the deposits will be gone.
But if one never goes WOT the W/I will not turn on and clean the engine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engine)

ROD


You're talking about prevention of deposits by a system your average owner wouldn't give a [censored] to wrap their head around.

Once the deposits are there, nothing short of manual labor will clean them. And trust me, even if you haven't had any running issues (MIL, rough idle, extreme power loss) due to carbon buildup, if you have DI the buildup is there.

The F-150 valves I posted were at 39k miles. You will see the same on a VW/Audi or BMW and will gain power with a cleaning at the same mileage, but you normally don't see a running issue until you're at about 80-100k and the buildup gets so extreme the valves don't fully close.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: HemiHawk
I'm not sure I understand how driving hard would eliminate the buildup. Wouldn't it actually cause more of the oil vapor to be sucked into the intake?


The reasoning is that by driving hard (for extended periods), you get the engine internals hot enough to burn off the deposits. Whether that's truly what happens, I don't know.

Deposits are not in combuster chamber, they are on opposite (cold) side of valves. Intake valves are closed during combustion and exhaust strokes. Also these valves are cooled by fresh air. So I don't quite understand how hard driving could help here.
I don't see any other way to clean deposits other then use brush or cleaning spray (or water).
 
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My experience with the CRC intake cleaner was pretty straight forward. I picked up a 2006 Cadillac CTS 3,6L with 52,000 miles on iy a couple of months ago. As part of an overall project of air filter, cleaning MAF, cleaning TB, changing oil and filter, etc, I did the CRC job at the same time.
 
Well, Toyota is known for reliability, so now they are comming out with DI engines in many models, including some known for reliability like the Tacoma and RX350 - IMHO they took the carbon formation on the 2GR-FKS very seriously. Do any of you know what the did on that engine to prevent it if the did something?
 
As bad as those ecoboost valves in the picture above look, I have pulled apart MANY 60s-70's era small block Chevy engines that looked just as bad if not worse.

Sure, they might have been down on power, but not by any amount that was extremely obvious to the daily-commute driver. No apparent drivability issues with gunked up valves - they all started fine, idled fine, ran OK at part throttle around town, etc.

I'm not saying that these deposits are a good thing, but the people that shriek in horror at photos like the one shown above should remember that we've been living with IV deposits for many, many years.
 
Originally Posted By: Olas

The options are to install a wet manifold or divert PCV and EGR away from the inlet.



That won't fix it either. Valve seals are designed to have a "controlled" leak. If you didn't allow oil past the valve stem seals, valve stems would be running dry, which would male for a pretty short life.

Eliminate PCV or install 3 catch cans in series, and you are still going to have oil getting on your valves. I personally feel that expensive catch cans are $300 snake oil. Sure, you can see what they collect, but how much of that fine oil mist would have stayed in suspension in the high vacuum intake manifold environment and sailed on past the intake valves?
 
CAFE standards play a role ?
Story of the free lunch - Feds & customers want more MPG and many still want want more MPH ...
 
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