deep thoughts.....oil/food

[JHZR2]

People everywhere get subsidies which screw up other markets... The US may give farm subsidies, but the Koreans subsidize Lycra, cars, etc... Another country may subsidize something else, and another something else. (not to pick on the Koreans, its just what first came to mind).

But hey, were supporting a LOT of other countries, due to our lack of industry base anymore, and our need to buy LOTS of stuff.

Drugs are a good example of something where if you take away the mystique and difficulty of obtaining it... the price drops and the industry is destroyed.

Subsidies drop the price and destroy other countries' simialr industries... Maybe we could make a subsidized drug industry, and put the columbians out of business... However theyd likely show up here as illegals.

All the same, oil isnt a subsiudized industry to the best of my knowledge. Now, maybe if we started extracting oil from tar sands and whatnot... we would effectively subsidize our oil industry and put the OPEC out of business, or in a position that they need to reduce their prices so low they dont make much $$$ from it anymore... That would be good, until someone else starts using it up... and the oil sands folks start to loose jobs and others get in new huffs.

Energy is a necessary generic commodity, required everywhere that people are. Therein lies some of the problem I guess.

All the same, if we ran our food distribution practices the way opec runs their oil distribution... youd start seeing the population drop... or startup farms worldwide go up.

At the end of the day, its all a give and take... something goes up here, sopmething goes down there... Except apparently in the area of energy... world demand is going up, and everything costs more as a result.

JMH

 

[PandaBear]

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Farm subsidies drop the price of food so low the farmers in places like Afghanistan can't make money by growing food. So, they grow drugs, and support the bad guys.

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I wouldn't say Afgan is growing drug using this as an excuse, but definitely some places in Mexico and Columbia is. I heard from a few friends who went to visit families in Columbia realizing that they can only afford to grow drugs or else their income will be almost non-existence. Since they are "protected" by rebels, it is an obvious choice for them.

I heard many coffee farmers down south start growing coca because of the flood of cheap coffee from Vietnam. In a way this is why I think farm subsidize in a rich nation like us will eventually cause overproduction and food price collapse in the 3rd world.

About the food production again. I recently saw a documentary in Taiwan about 60-70 year old active rice farmers. They complain the import of cheap rice from Thailand reduced their price so low that they can barely make a living above collecting welfare (farm abandon welfare). All of their children went to cities to work instead of continue farming. At the end of the documentary, the government force them to abandon their field to reduce supply and raise price.

One of my classmate from China confirm the same. The younger generation abandon the farm and goes to the cities to find jobs, working in factories. Thats where the cheap labor in China comes from. Most of the coastal land were converted from farms to factory and residential buildings too. If you go to the rural villages you will find only old people farming, and the younger generations send money back to support the old folks.

Food used to be so expensive there that you have to have quota to buy food, but now it is so cheap that obesity is the new problem among kids.

 

[The_Jeff]

And don't forget about food substitutions.

I am talking about vegetarianism vs our current omnivorous diet.

A country can cut down on its farm field acreage per capita quite a bit if everyone eats soy-dogs and rice.

If we were to blockade a country we would annoy them before we starved them, by quite a margin.

If TSHTF here in the US, there's a lot of gritty, lousy dry corn in the heartland.

 

[MarkC]

Has anyone done any research about what exactly goes into all this food production in North America? Unless things have changed in a few years, most of it is grown using chemicals that come from hydrocarbons. I may be mistaken, if so, somebody correct me please.

 

[Shannow]

eating oil

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In the United States, 400 gallons of oil equivalents are expended annually to feed each American (as of data provided in 1994).

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50GJ p.a.???
assuming that you eat 2500 calories (and assuming my match is correct), we consume 3.8GJ p.a.

another link

 

[Jaman]

You guys can't be for real! Why they hate the US? Because the US muddles in everyone's business. Eg. supporting/training/arming Taliban to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan, supporting/arming Sadam to fight Iran, endless support of coups that overthrew democraticly elected anti-US governments in Central/South America, etc..

If you keep to yourself, then you should be alright. However, it's a little too late for that. Now it's a never ending cycle....

Anyways, I thought religious/political posts were not allowed.

 

[Shannow]

Jaman, shhhhhhhh

 

[JHZR2]

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Originally posted by Pontius Pilate:
OH21 - 200 suicide bombers, yet they have 350,000 soldiers... i have thought a while about why "they" hate us, there is of course the easy explanation of "they are just fanatical muslims" but aside from that, what can make someone hate you so much that they will kill themselves to take you with them? what is it that we did or are doing that maybe the mass populous isn't aware of that would make someone despise you that much? it's strange... theres more to the story than we are all told i believe, the old saying goes "it takes 2 to tango" and logically no one attacks someone else for no reason, not trying to make excuses just trying to figure out the "why's" in all of it instead of just getting po'ed, as thats much easier.

iran is much different than iraq, different circumstances, and IMO a much more dangerous leader... also much more powerful, i think a non military solution will arise, not just because we are stretched thin, but because we are tired of fighting.

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PP... this has always been the case... they hate, enslave and generally have been trouble to all non muslim peoples for a LONG time.

Think of the Marine song... the Marines went to Tripoli, because of the barbary pirates... North African muslims, intent on being paid 'tribute' for the purpose of not enslaving european and American ships onthe mediterranian. People were fed up then... thus the slogan "millions for defence, not one cent for tribute".

But it dates FAR back from there. Some background is in a link Ill give below.

Some interesting reading can be done here:
http://www.zianet.com/wblase/endtimes/barbary.htm

JMH

 

[Pablo]

"They" hate us because they hate Jews. EOT.

 

[Pontius Pilate]

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"They" hate us because they hate Jews. EOT.

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and we supply israel with missles, helicopters, arms ? so by extention we are just as bad?

JHZR2 - very interesting, also reading about islamic crusades v.s christian crusades here http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/crusades.htm i don't believe in any religion, these kinds of things just make it all that much easier.... it's really too bad people can't just believe in whatever *** or religion or belief system they want and keep it to themselves and everyone get along.... afterall no one knows REALLY how we all got here, if we were created or dropped here or whatever, everyone just holds to a theory and believes it to be true, which is great... but why fight over it? everyone has an opinion and no opinion is more valid than the other when it comes to something no one really knows the answer to.

 

[OriginHacker21]

We have supplied tons of nations with military arms, helicopters, planes, what not. I believe a lot of Europe buys our military planes....

The difference is, these guys (above) don't use these weapons to mass murder other people. So I think we arn't a "bad" person to sell missles, arms, helicopters.

As for the religion comment by Pontius Pilate - Can't agree with you more. Why can't everyone just RESPECT religion and let people do what they want? That is basic freedom afterall, isn't it? The United States of America was founded on freedom of religion.

Islam on the other hand... Just coverting to Christianity from Islam gets you killed. If we hadn't stepped in on that guy who made national news after converting to Christianity he'd have his head chopped off a long time ago.

That is the problem with the middle east and the rest of the world.

 

[Pontius Pilate]

OH21 - you're right, they do have brutal forms of punishment... i see different religions as different theories/ideas and embrace them all equally, no need to step on any of them or anything like that.... all have very interesting ideas, so what if your neighbor is a buddhist...learn a little about it, you might like some of their ideas too, he might be a BITOGER and you may never know!

 

[JHZR2]

true... we have issues of "intolerance" because we dont approve of two guys getting married... they have issues of "intolerance" because of someone's basic beliefs, that are irrelevant to government rule (unless youre in SA or Iran, i guess), or anyones' business. You can die due to existing there... there is a big difference.

Sometimes it makes me think its silly what we get all upset about.

Sometimes it makes me mad to think that we dontjust let these 'inferior' cultures just kill themselves off.

JMH

 

[michaelc80]

Why they hate us is a much deeper issue. Democracy is entirely opposite from the culture of tribalism, authoritarian traditionalism, and Islamic fundamentalism. We attempt to practice tolerance and equal economic opportunity for everyone.

Their leaders put blame for their own self-inflicted misery upon corporations, democracy and racism. Anything other than the absence of real markets and a free society. The Islamic intelligentsia recognizes the Muslim world’s inferiority towards the West, but it then seeks to fault others for its own self-created fiasco.

 

[OriginHacker21]

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Originally posted by JHZR2:

Sometimes it makes me mad to think that we dontjust let these 'inferior' cultures just kill themselves off.

JMH

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I definitely agree. Only problem is when you have these inferior cultures doing mass genocide killing thousands upon thousands of people. Can we as a human race stand by and watch this happen when we have the power to stop it? That is the question.

 

[PandaBear]

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You guys can't be for real! Why they hate the US? Because the US muddles in everyone's business. Eg. supporting/training/arming Taliban to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan, supporting/arming Sadam to fight Iran, endless support of coups that overthrew democraticly elected anti-US governments in Central/South America, etc..

If you keep to yourself, then you should be alright. However, it's a little too late for that. Now it's a never ending cycle....

Anyways, I thought religious/political posts were not allowed.

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Not sure about our current stand on this, but from what one of my co-worker told me, CIA was trying ot recruit his mom (probably around 55 yr old now) back in college to join an anti-government group in one of the Latin American country (forgot which one).

I think since the 80s we have stopped (or try to stop) messing around others' businesses, but it seems like we are not that successful and was always dragged into some baggage from the past. Afgan is one, Iran is one, Iraq is another. Hey, at least we are in peace with EU, China, and Japan. It will probably take 20 years before everyone else is ok with us, 20 years of keeping it to ourselves.

 

[Schmoe]

Well, as I can plainly see from reading all these comments, food is a BIG topic and that was my point. I am totally in-tune with JHZR2 comments regarding OPEC's stance. If we cut back food production because we are going to make fuel out of it, it would be a media circus and give more ammo to the "third" world countries that we are indeed the devil and trying to kill them all off by holding back food. Of course, it would never be told by the media, and especially the local terroist news agency Al-jazere (sp???) on what has happen. But, it is OUR RIGHT to live the way we so choose and having cars that require fuel is what we chose to do, then we make it happen. Now if the cost of gas is too high, then we will find alternatives, and unfortunently, converting food to fuel based on a available and replenishable resource, is food. If them arsheholes would have ever thought about that in the first place, none of the present day situation would exist. Also, the world has become accustomed to the good ol' US to provide them. If we cut back, whoa!!!! we are the devil himself. That, my friends, has came to be because we've been too nice all these years. And for some of you that think this is cruel, well, bring it on. Reality is a $itch sometimes, but it's reality. Survival instincts come in to play at some point. The haves and the have nots that won't compromise. This is not an idealogy that we are to take over the world that I'm trying to get across, but my gosh, at some point you got to realize what is going on and see the writing on the wall. I totally agree with one of the posters that mentioned that "they" think they can take over the world, or at least hold it hostage as they have done with France and Spain. Just think if no one would have said NO in WWII. We'd either be speaking Japanese or German right now.....

 

[johnsmith]

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you are

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making

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a lot of sweeping generalizations

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our government

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thinks

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they can bully anyone around... including us...

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We should stop trying to be the world police

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and just keep to ourselves

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theres too much

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testosterone

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in

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this thread

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[Gary Allan]

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Our food production is our Ace in the hole, but we are not using it as such.

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Not yet. There is too much of the world to seduce into industrialization and abandon their agrarian cultures. They will then bow on their KNEES to our will without a shot being fired. We won't have to launch brave new wars ..we'll just turn off the tap of food.

So ..let it flow at a discount. Most of the troublesome nations are finding out that when compared to our cheaper ag products ..they cannot afford to feed themselves. They'll be enslaved to food as most everyone else is enslaved to the American markets and the comsumerism. Other nations will win many milestones in the battle for global supremacy/advancement. We march, as we always have, like lemmings to the sea in sacrifice ...and they never defeat "us" (whomever "us" truly is). Winning against us is a trap ...a very seductive one.


It's all very preta porte

[ April 20, 2006, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[OriginHacker21]

I think Schmoe has a great post above. We've been so nice to the world that what we do for free is now becoming something they expect that we give them. When we stop giving this food they will become very anti-US just because they have learned to become dependent on what we give them INSTEAD of going out and learning how to become self dependent.

Giving a homeless guy food is nice but if he learns that he doesn't have to work by depending on the food you give him everyday - I think that is a bad thing. Maybe this is what has happened to the rest of the world?

I agree with the posters here. Why are we getting burned for doing nice things when we could just take all that extra food and convert it into Ethanol? Isn't this a reason why gas prices have soared recently - the shortage of Ethanol?

Seems a simple enough of a fix to me.