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Please explain to me what that entails.
deep thoughts.....oil/food
- Thread starter Schmoe
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Schmoe - I think my basic point is that there are a lot of sweeping generalizations in your post that may not stand up to scrutiny.
For instance, on the oil and gas issue, is your post really based on an oil increase of roughly 40%, or a gas price increase in the last year of roughly 100%? If your thoughts really derive from the oil issue alone they seem a tad over-reactive relative to a 40% increase. I admit that 40% in absolute terms is a lot, but I can't help feeling that maybe various factors are being conflated, rather than analyzed.
Another for-instance, an intrinsic assumption you have made is that there is a basic dichotromy between having either food or oil, and somehow there is a restriction in the markets which keeps the two sides from equalizing, to the disadvantage of the U.S. While I am no student of world geographic resources, that drastic dichotomy doesn't seem likely.
Don't get me wrong, I think your post has a lot of interesting thoughts in it and can prompt some very productive discussion, but I don't think the central assumption of there being a market or trade strategy deficiency is true.
On a related note, I have questions about how long we will be able to produce food at the current level given trends in water availability and weather. Again this is something I don't study in detail, but the trends in this area don't look all that good to me. We shouldn't blindly assume that the past is indicative of the future, there may well be much delayed reaction to our past practices which has not caught up with us yet.
For instance, on the oil and gas issue, is your post really based on an oil increase of roughly 40%, or a gas price increase in the last year of roughly 100%? If your thoughts really derive from the oil issue alone they seem a tad over-reactive relative to a 40% increase. I admit that 40% in absolute terms is a lot, but I can't help feeling that maybe various factors are being conflated, rather than analyzed.
Another for-instance, an intrinsic assumption you have made is that there is a basic dichotromy between having either food or oil, and somehow there is a restriction in the markets which keeps the two sides from equalizing, to the disadvantage of the U.S. While I am no student of world geographic resources, that drastic dichotomy doesn't seem likely.
Don't get me wrong, I think your post has a lot of interesting thoughts in it and can prompt some very productive discussion, but I don't think the central assumption of there being a market or trade strategy deficiency is true.
On a related note, I have questions about how long we will be able to produce food at the current level given trends in water availability and weather. Again this is something I don't study in detail, but the trends in this area don't look all that good to me. We shouldn't blindly assume that the past is indicative of the future, there may well be much delayed reaction to our past practices which has not caught up with us yet.
JHZR2
Staff member
I think schmoe pointed out some pretty good examples... In *** we trust is bad... the pledge of allegiance is bad... a christmas tree is bad... an easter bunny is offensive... lets see, I could go on forever.
If the majority of a town is white christian, they ought to be able to have a christmas tree on the steps of town hall. If the town has a majority of jews, a minorah, if a majority africans... a kwanzaa display.
Around me, only the kwanzaa display is 'legal' and PC.
JMH
I'm simply amazed that this thread hasn't been locked yet....
Back 75-100 yrs ago, didn't the U.S. have an isolationist policy ?? I seem to remember that from "social studies" back in Public School in the '50's.
I know my heart skipped a beat the first time I heard Bush sr. say the words "Global Economy". I can't compete with a third world country working for $0.50/hr with no union (protection), no labor laws in a sweatshop factory that has no environmental protection laws...I'd get my A$$ kicked !! I don't believe we will bring the world up to our level, we will have to sink to theirs to compete.
Perhaps the isolationist policy would work well again.
If we really wanted to know why the rest of the world hates us, we would ask them. Like the rock song says "Don't ask me what I think of you...you might not get the answer that you wanted to (or something like that)".
Anyway...the Romans rose and fell, and the British Empire had it's go at it. I hope North America hasn't seen it's last day in the sun !!
Something has to change, and to a large degree we hold our future in our hands. I hope the one steering this ship isn't motivated by profit, greed or the unwavering belief that he/she is absolutely right....or there will be heL L to pay.
WE need
NOT
P.B.
I know my heart skipped a beat the first time I heard Bush sr. say the words "Global Economy". I can't compete with a third world country working for $0.50/hr with no union (protection), no labor laws in a sweatshop factory that has no environmental protection laws...I'd get my A$$ kicked !! I don't believe we will bring the world up to our level, we will have to sink to theirs to compete.
Perhaps the isolationist policy would work well again.
If we really wanted to know why the rest of the world hates us, we would ask them. Like the rock song says "Don't ask me what I think of you...you might not get the answer that you wanted to (or something like that)".
Anyway...the Romans rose and fell, and the British Empire had it's go at it. I hope North America hasn't seen it's last day in the sun !!
Something has to change, and to a large degree we hold our future in our hands. I hope the one steering this ship isn't motivated by profit, greed or the unwavering belief that he/she is absolutely right....or there will be heL L to pay.
WE need
P.B.
michaelc80 said "I'm simply amazed that this thread hasn't been locked yet.... "
Maybe the battery went dead in '59's wireless mouse and he went to get another one so he could shut us down.
We are well served by our admins.
........Perhaps a grass roots ground swell of support will begin for the next obvious step......'59 for President , '59 for President !!
Running unopposed for the BITOG Party !! YEAH !!
Maybe the battery went dead in '59's wireless mouse and he went to get another one so he could shut us down.
We are well served by our admins.
........Perhaps a grass roots ground swell of support will begin for the next obvious step......'59 for President , '59 for President !!
Running unopposed for the BITOG Party !! YEAH !!
i'm just suprised/glad it didn't turn into a bloodbath, everyone is being civil... rock on.
Yeah, good job people - keeping it civil like it should be
.
I hope this doesn't get locked out, I am very curious on others' view points. Am I alone in this? Intersting that some agree, while others don't. That's cool with me. You guys give me the best of both sides of the equation, I wouldn't expect nothing less.
I completely disagree.
But before you
guys start throwing stones at me, let me say this out loud: oil, food, terrorism, nuke, china, iraq, iran, and 911 are not directly related.
They are related because we think the whole world is divided into 2 parts: us, and them.
Since we produce the most food and we give some countries for free, then we deserve all the resource we needed for free (or very low price, in my definition).
Since we help defeat the great evil in WWII, we deserve unlimited military presence all over the world and we should have unlimited right to police the world (according to our own definition and interest).
You see what I am getting at? While I don't think we are evil like many of those foreign countries think we are, there is definitely a large percentage of our population thinking that we OWN THE WORLD and we should set the rule. I wouldn't call this a bullying behavior, but why on earth are we doing good deed and expecting a return?
We are giving food away for free because we want to keep our poor farmer employed, not as a charity work to the rest of the world. In many ways this makes food price collapse elsewhere and their farmer became unemployed. We, on the other hand, demand those 3rd world country stop subsidizing their farmer and join WTO so they have a bigger market for our food.
But before you
They are related because we think the whole world is divided into 2 parts: us, and them.
Since we produce the most food and we give some countries for free, then we deserve all the resource we needed for free (or very low price, in my definition).
Since we help defeat the great evil in WWII, we deserve unlimited military presence all over the world and we should have unlimited right to police the world (according to our own definition and interest).
You see what I am getting at? While I don't think we are evil like many of those foreign countries think we are, there is definitely a large percentage of our population thinking that we OWN THE WORLD and we should set the rule. I wouldn't call this a bullying behavior, but why on earth are we doing good deed and expecting a return?
We are giving food away for free because we want to keep our poor farmer employed, not as a charity work to the rest of the world. In many ways this makes food price collapse elsewhere and their farmer became unemployed. We, on the other hand, demand those 3rd world country stop subsidizing their farmer and join WTO so they have a bigger market for our food.
JHZR2
Staff member
I agree... I sure hope this does not get locked out, as its interesting to see what others say too.
I agree with you, Schmoe... but others have more market or world perspectives, so its neat to see them chime in to make for meaningful conversation.
JMH
I agree with you, Schmoe... but others have more market or world perspectives, so its neat to see them chime in to make for meaningful conversation.
JMH
Now regarding to oil.
If we really want to reduce oil dependency why aren't our government doing anything about mass transit? Instead of creating technologies and hybrid this, hybrid that, why aren't we investing in mass transit like helping subways expand and rebuild many of our ghetto downtown? Convert them into apartments and have people taking buses and subways to work, instead of the 3-4 hours commute many of us have, and force us to buy huge, comfortable SUVs so our back won't hurt?
No, the reason we didn't do this is because our government is owned by large corporate (via election ads funding) and large oils and unions have big interests in keeping this situation as is. Our politicians therefore blame everything on others and present themselves as heros on our side.
Just blame someone until we get used to the oil price, and grab as many votes as they can along the way.
If we really want to reduce oil dependency why aren't our government doing anything about mass transit? Instead of creating technologies and hybrid this, hybrid that, why aren't we investing in mass transit like helping subways expand and rebuild many of our ghetto downtown? Convert them into apartments and have people taking buses and subways to work, instead of the 3-4 hours commute many of us have, and force us to buy huge, comfortable SUVs so our back won't hurt?
No, the reason we didn't do this is because our government is owned by large corporate (via election ads funding) and large oils and unions have big interests in keeping this situation as is. Our politicians therefore blame everything on others and present themselves as heros on our side.
Just blame someone until we get used to the oil price, and grab as many votes as they can along the way.
JHZR2
Staff member
Panda... good points except that (a) the islamic fundamentalist countries think they can bully anyone around... including us... and (b) OPEC knows that they can bully us around by playing with oil production, since we need it.
The reality is that much of the world needs our food production... Circumstances (the SUV craze of the 90s and early 2000s for example, which have at least partially gotten us where we are... just the same as bullying of farmers other places in the world may have messed up their food producing capability.
The reality though is that while we give our food away freely, or at least trade it without the seemingly ridiculous variations that oil has done... oil hasnt acted the same way.
If OPEC rules oil production, and we rule food production... OK, thats fine... But if OPEC reduces oil production, things grind to a halt... If we reduce food production, people starve.
Obviously it isnt really nice to do this, but if reducing production of an important item is the way that the modern world has established that it works... maybe we should play the game the same way. If people in this country or that go through famines, starve and die... should we care? OPEC acts this way, so why shouldnt we? The world is set up a certain way in the food market... why dont we beefen up our military and make our fat cats fatter by leveraging on the supply of food in the world, making everyone pay huge price increases.
Its the way that business is done, right?
JMH
The reality is that much of the world needs our food production... Circumstances (the SUV craze of the 90s and early 2000s for example, which have at least partially gotten us where we are... just the same as bullying of farmers other places in the world may have messed up their food producing capability.
The reality though is that while we give our food away freely, or at least trade it without the seemingly ridiculous variations that oil has done... oil hasnt acted the same way.
If OPEC rules oil production, and we rule food production... OK, thats fine... But if OPEC reduces oil production, things grind to a halt... If we reduce food production, people starve.
Obviously it isnt really nice to do this, but if reducing production of an important item is the way that the modern world has established that it works... maybe we should play the game the same way. If people in this country or that go through famines, starve and die... should we care? OPEC acts this way, so why shouldnt we? The world is set up a certain way in the food market... why dont we beefen up our military and make our fat cats fatter by leveraging on the supply of food in the world, making everyone pay huge price increases.
Its the way that business is done, right?
JMH
JHZR2
Staff member
Now this is good stuff... excellent points. Al ot of it points back at society as a whole anyway... which has been one of my points all along.
JMH
I agree with schmoe - don't want this locked out. Very very interesting topic.
I think this is true, in a way they use their leverage, whether conciously or unconciously, to retaliate by the increase in oil price.
IMO, this is the power of nuclear weapon. You don't use it, but by having it, and create the fear in your enemy of having the power and will to use it, you already won.
They may or may not be doing any reduction in capacity, but since fear is in the market and everyone is bidding up the price just in case the oil is cut tomorrow, we are already raising it ourselves.
The good thing is, if this capacity cut doesn't materialize, then our price will fall back and "theoratically" all the money we overpay today will be back to us as the price tomorrow goes down. (that is a big if, assuming that the oil company and gas station is honest and reduce their price after we are used to the high price)
JHZR2
Staff member
Havent seen it thus far... After katrina, the lowest I bought in NJ (one of the cheapest states inthe country) was a bit under $2/gal.. definitely not a retracement of the previous price levels.
They know (and they are lot so fentities here and abroad) they have us where they want us... us being the consumer... the easiest to be bossed around... and so its just trouble from here...
JMH
They know (and they are lot so fentities here and abroad) they have us where they want us... us being the consumer... the easiest to be bossed around... and so its just trouble from here...
JMH
Farm subsidies drop the price of food so low the farmers in places like Afghanistan can't make money by growing food. So, they grow drugs, and support the bad guys.
As everyone is successfully pointing out, it is all inter-related. There is no end of the thread which you pull on, push on, or modify to effect change. You can start modifying at any point and through the interconnection everything will be effected.
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