This thread gave me an idea. What if we generates a new web site:
bobisthedogfoodguy.com
bobisthedogfoodguy.com
Dog Owners: What brand dog food do you purchase?
- Thread starter TallPaul
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Originally Posted By: labman
If you want to indulge yourself by feeding premium brands, Please don't state as fact that they are better and don't put down common brands and the people that feed them.
Oh, and skip the links to opinion filled sites with nothing to back them. I despise having my time wasted verifying claims are without merit.
Without 'merit'? Who are you trying to fool here....perhaps yourself? The last link I posted gave you a solid reference point to investigate YOURSELF further into the truth here. You asked for credible, scientific 'proof' (something that doesn't exist for many things we still know as truths), and I provided you with a link to a book freakin FULL of science and studies....as well as being written by THREE highly regarded specialists that have no axe to grind. Yet, as I predicted, you browsed the ARTICLE and ignored the point of my post.....the point being that what you ask for (but cover your eyes with your hands), IS IN THE BOOK. Now I know that you feel that your opinions here are valid in regard to this subject...perhaps so. Considering you so boldly dismiss a well regarded publication (with data, by highly educated and unbiased, acredited, pet care professionals with decades of experience)....may I ask what qualifications YOU have and why anybody here should consider your opinions? Are you a scientist in the field of animal nutrition? Are you a vet?
You expect others to gather information FOR you while you sit in your armchair.... finding it all rather controlling I assume. Well, I've provided you with a start toward learning something new....yet there you sit, insisting that no data or valid studies exist. Odd man.
If you want to indulge yourself by feeding premium brands, Please don't state as fact that they are better and don't put down common brands and the people that feed them.
Oh, and skip the links to opinion filled sites with nothing to back them. I despise having my time wasted verifying claims are without merit.
Without 'merit'? Who are you trying to fool here....perhaps yourself? The last link I posted gave you a solid reference point to investigate YOURSELF further into the truth here. You asked for credible, scientific 'proof' (something that doesn't exist for many things we still know as truths), and I provided you with a link to a book freakin FULL of science and studies....as well as being written by THREE highly regarded specialists that have no axe to grind. Yet, as I predicted, you browsed the ARTICLE and ignored the point of my post.....the point being that what you ask for (but cover your eyes with your hands), IS IN THE BOOK. Now I know that you feel that your opinions here are valid in regard to this subject...perhaps so. Considering you so boldly dismiss a well regarded publication (with data, by highly educated and unbiased, acredited, pet care professionals with decades of experience)....may I ask what qualifications YOU have and why anybody here should consider your opinions? Are you a scientist in the field of animal nutrition? Are you a vet?
You expect others to gather information FOR you while you sit in your armchair.... finding it all rather controlling I assume. Well, I've provided you with a start toward learning something new....yet there you sit, insisting that no data or valid studies exist. Odd man.
Originally Posted By: labman
Skimmed through http://www.naturalpetfood.com/meatorgrain.html I didn't see a single reference to a scientific study. Apparently the authors don't feel they are very important. No studies, no credibility.
Skimmed through http://www.naturalpetfood.com/meatorgrain.html I didn't see a single reference to a scientific study. Apparently the authors don't feel they are very important. No studies, no credibility.
Originally Posted By: labman
Originally Posted By: labman
Skimmed through http://www.naturalpetfood.com/meatorgrain.html I didn't see a single reference to a scientific study. Apparently the authors don't feel they are very important. No studies, no credibility.
Take your hands away from your eyes.....re-read my last TWO posts.....and then, after actually looking into the subject (and telling us all of YOUR canine nutrition qualifications) give an opinion based on what you may have learned. Or does learning take a back seat to ego?
Wait....I think I just answered for you.
Originally Posted By: labman
Skimmed through http://www.naturalpetfood.com/meatorgrain.html I didn't see a single reference to a scientific study. Apparently the authors don't feel they are very important. No studies, no credibility.
Take your hands away from your eyes.....re-read my last TWO posts.....and then, after actually looking into the subject (and telling us all of YOUR canine nutrition qualifications) give an opinion based on what you may have learned. Or does learning take a back seat to ego?
Wait....I think I just answered for you.
Good scientific studies are seldom available for free on the net. Still the tip of the iceberg shows up in http://www.avma.org/animal_health/brochures/canine_parvo/parvo_brochure.asp
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jan05/050115ww.asp
http://www.vianet.net.au/~desaix/prenatal_three.htm.
http://www.longliveyourdog.com/twoplus/RateYourDog.aspx
http://www.ddgs.umn.edu/articles-companion/2004-Hill- Alternative proteins in--.pdf
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/8/2141S#top
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16426...Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jan05/050115ww.asp
http://www.avma.org/avmacollections/obesity_dogs/javma_219_5_601.pdf
http://www.avma.org/animal_health/brochures/spay-neuter/spay-neuter_brochure.asp
http://users.pullman.com/lostriver/breeddata.htm
Kealy, et al. "Effects of limited food consumption on the incidence of hip dysplasia in growing dogs." JAVMA, v201, n6 Sept 15, 1992
You should be able to go the bibliography in the back of that book and find many references to the JAVMA and other real scientific journals and post them here.
Some of the above links have little to do with dog food, but are examples of scientifically based work.
Originally Posted By: andrewg
You asked for credible, scientific 'proof' (something that doesn't exist for many things we still know as truths), and I provided you with a link to a book freakin FULL of science and studies....as well as being written by THREE highly regarded specialists that have no axe to grind.
So is science an important way of understanding our world or not? Can you give some examples of truths where scientific proof doesn't exist?
If there is so much science behind the book, why didn't they put a single reference to it on the web page? Highly regarded by who?
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jan05/050115ww.asp
http://www.vianet.net.au/~desaix/prenatal_three.htm.
http://www.longliveyourdog.com/twoplus/RateYourDog.aspx
http://www.ddgs.umn.edu/articles-companion/2004-Hill- Alternative proteins in--.pdf
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/8/2141S#top
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16426...Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jan05/050115ww.asp
http://www.avma.org/avmacollections/obesity_dogs/javma_219_5_601.pdf
http://www.avma.org/animal_health/brochures/spay-neuter/spay-neuter_brochure.asp
http://users.pullman.com/lostriver/breeddata.htm
Kealy, et al. "Effects of limited food consumption on the incidence of hip dysplasia in growing dogs." JAVMA, v201, n6 Sept 15, 1992
You should be able to go the bibliography in the back of that book and find many references to the JAVMA and other real scientific journals and post them here.
Some of the above links have little to do with dog food, but are examples of scientifically based work.
Originally Posted By: andrewg
You asked for credible, scientific 'proof' (something that doesn't exist for many things we still know as truths), and I provided you with a link to a book freakin FULL of science and studies....as well as being written by THREE highly regarded specialists that have no axe to grind.
So is science an important way of understanding our world or not? Can you give some examples of truths where scientific proof doesn't exist?
If there is so much science behind the book, why didn't they put a single reference to it on the web page? Highly regarded by who?
I really hate to bring this up again, but found some new stuff. As part of my ongoing efforts to learn about dogs, I was browsing the net last night. I came across this, http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/07/pet-food-nutrition-myths/ My first reference to Dr. Dzanis was a reference on the AVMA site about him addressing their convention last year. He is a veterinarian on the staff of the FDA. He gives very little to back up what he says, but I find him quite credible. When I get time, I will look into this more.
Originally Posted By: labman
I really hate to bring this up again, but found some new stuff. As part of my ongoing efforts to learn about dogs, I was browsing the net last night. I came across this, http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/07/pet-food-nutrition-myths/ My first reference to Dr. Dzanis was a reference on the AVMA site about him addressing their convention last year. He is a veterinarian on the staff of the FDA. He gives very little to back up what he says, but I find him quite credible. When I get time, I will look into this more.
You 'find' him quite credible? Hmmmm.....not really a surprise that you find a skeptic that supports your opinions (without your much touted scientific studies) as somehow credible. Works for the FDA huh? No reason to distrust him, right? I'll provide this persons opinion (based on a tad more 'study' than your FDA skeptic) http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/article...to-the-fda.html
She gives very little SCIENTIFIC studies to back it up....but I find her credible as well.
I really hate to bring this up again, but found some new stuff. As part of my ongoing efforts to learn about dogs, I was browsing the net last night. I came across this, http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/07/pet-food-nutrition-myths/ My first reference to Dr. Dzanis was a reference on the AVMA site about him addressing their convention last year. He is a veterinarian on the staff of the FDA. He gives very little to back up what he says, but I find him quite credible. When I get time, I will look into this more.
You 'find' him quite credible? Hmmmm.....not really a surprise that you find a skeptic that supports your opinions (without your much touted scientific studies) as somehow credible. Works for the FDA huh? No reason to distrust him, right? I'll provide this persons opinion (based on a tad more 'study' than your FDA skeptic) http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/article...to-the-fda.html
She gives very little SCIENTIFIC studies to back it up....but I find her credible as well.
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Originally Posted By: labman
People can feed their dog what ever they want. Just refrain from bashing other foods and quit posting a bunch of deceptive half truths. The trace of of euthanised animals is so small that no honest, rational person would use it as an argument.
+1. I'm sure if you got to the vet's office and ask them what they do with euthanized animals, they will not tell you the feed company picks them up. the key here is to pick a food that suits your pet and your wallet. I don't buy certain food since they make my lab blow up the house, and other foods since they are 2 to 3 times the cost.... my childhood dog I had lived about 14 or 15 yrs on regular old purina chow..... I know that is animal abuse by some peoples' opinions today, but please, they are dogs not people----no sweater's or restaurant seating please---and are you really gonna cook a meal for your dog?
People can feed their dog what ever they want. Just refrain from bashing other foods and quit posting a bunch of deceptive half truths. The trace of of euthanised animals is so small that no honest, rational person would use it as an argument.
+1. I'm sure if you got to the vet's office and ask them what they do with euthanized animals, they will not tell you the feed company picks them up. the key here is to pick a food that suits your pet and your wallet. I don't buy certain food since they make my lab blow up the house, and other foods since they are 2 to 3 times the cost.... my childhood dog I had lived about 14 or 15 yrs on regular old purina chow..... I know that is animal abuse by some peoples' opinions today, but please, they are dogs not people----no sweater's or restaurant seating please---and are you really gonna cook a meal for your dog?
Originally Posted By: joel95ex
.....I'm sure if you got to the vet's office and ask them what they do with euthanized animals, they will not tell you the feed company picks them up.
Then that Vet doesn't know what he is talking about.(edited to add, of course most Vets do not follow this practice. It is only a percentage of Vets that follow the practice of profiting from the dead carcasses. Most Vets, like mine says he does, incinerate through outside contractor)
The question isn't whether euthanized animals get used in animal feed, they DO. That much is fact, the rendering plants exist and I know for a fact that they buy road kill and euthanized animals. That much I've seen with my own eyes.
No, the question is where do the products of the rendering houses end up? Does it end up in Dog food? I cant prove it does or doesn't and neither can the linked article. Notice the best that Vet for the FDA is willing to say is "probably" not....in my research it seems no one(really involved) wants to openly talk about this or the common practices.....for very good reason.
The linked article does hint at what I have been able to gleen....and that is that different types of rendering houses do exist. Some are solely in the human rendered products business and render mainly slaughtered under FDA inspection fats. Others are more solely aligned at providing edible animal feeds products, mainly for cattle, chicken and swine production. This later type is neither intended or involved in edible human products and they do buy all kinds of nasty "product".
.....I'm sure if you got to the vet's office and ask them what they do with euthanized animals, they will not tell you the feed company picks them up.
Then that Vet doesn't know what he is talking about.(edited to add, of course most Vets do not follow this practice. It is only a percentage of Vets that follow the practice of profiting from the dead carcasses. Most Vets, like mine says he does, incinerate through outside contractor)
The question isn't whether euthanized animals get used in animal feed, they DO. That much is fact, the rendering plants exist and I know for a fact that they buy road kill and euthanized animals. That much I've seen with my own eyes.
No, the question is where do the products of the rendering houses end up? Does it end up in Dog food? I cant prove it does or doesn't and neither can the linked article. Notice the best that Vet for the FDA is willing to say is "probably" not....in my research it seems no one(really involved) wants to openly talk about this or the common practices.....for very good reason.
The linked article does hint at what I have been able to gleen....and that is that different types of rendering houses do exist. Some are solely in the human rendered products business and render mainly slaughtered under FDA inspection fats. Others are more solely aligned at providing edible animal feeds products, mainly for cattle, chicken and swine production. This later type is neither intended or involved in edible human products and they do buy all kinds of nasty "product".
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Originally Posted By: andrewg
I'll provide this persons opinion (based on a tad more 'study' than your FDA skeptic) http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/article...to-the-fda.html
She gives very little SCIENTIFIC studies to back it up....but I find her credible as well.
Has the AVMA ever invited her to speak at their convention?
I'll provide this persons opinion (based on a tad more 'study' than your FDA skeptic) http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/article...to-the-fda.html
She gives very little SCIENTIFIC studies to back it up....but I find her credible as well.
Has the AVMA ever invited her to speak at their convention?
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
This thread gave me an idea. What if we generates a new web site:
bobisthedogfoodguy.com
Yea. We only have a 10 page thread on this.
This thread gave me an idea. What if we generates a new web site:
bobisthedogfoodguy.com
Yea. We only have a 10 page thread on this.
besides the alleged use in dog food, some "organic" fertilizers/plant foods may contain dead animals. there are the manure types like chicken, turkey, and cow, and the others that contain blood & bone meal and other materials. there are many uses for dead animals----not all is ground up and put in dog food. most people comparing dog foods are told to look at the top ingredient which is usually corn.
So what are we going to do with dead animals? Landfill them? I know there is a lot of industrial use of animal byproducts. The rubber industry uses a lot of stearic acid and many glues use animal residues.
To some, that former pets are in dog food will be true even though the FDA couldn't find any dog or cat DNA in any dog food.
To some, that former pets are in dog food will be true even though the FDA couldn't find any dog or cat DNA in any dog food.
Labman, I respect your opinion but I dont understand how you can be so sure of the facts. Especially when taking the comment from your linked article into account......
"So while the FDA cannot guarantee, that no rendered pet material ever makes it into any pet food, it is highly unlikely..."
I'm not trying to imply that every manufacturer follows this practice or even that it is a widespread thing......But it does happen. Your linked article says that 98% of the manufacturers claim to never use rendered pets as ingredients.....That begs the question, who are these other 2% of the industry.
As to the DNA, they only tested the proteins. They didnt exhaust every possible source for the DNA did they?
"So while the FDA cannot guarantee, that no rendered pet material ever makes it into any pet food, it is highly unlikely..."
I'm not trying to imply that every manufacturer follows this practice or even that it is a widespread thing......But it does happen. Your linked article says that 98% of the manufacturers claim to never use rendered pets as ingredients.....That begs the question, who are these other 2% of the industry.
As to the DNA, they only tested the proteins. They didnt exhaust every possible source for the DNA did they?
I will stand on the FDA's ''highly unlikely''.
I feed my dog Innova. I don't think it's terribly expensive and my dog likes it. I started feeding him Innova because they were never involved in the melamine scare and my local feed store carries it.
Originally Posted By: joel95ex
and are you really gonna cook a meal for your dog?
I do. And I have no problems doing it either. In fact, cooking meals for them has actually proven to be more cost effective, better digested, etc. in our experience.
I make huge batches of food each Sunday and freeze it for the week. I should say however, I don't actually cook all the meats they get, some are cooked, some are raw. Doesn't bother them a bit....and I've actually found they digest fresh foods better then they ever did dry dog food.
We have 3 dogs, one 60# 2yr old, and 2 small dogs - they get absolutely no grains, just meat and veggies and they're thriving.
As a child growing up, the actual thought of *purchasing* a bag of dog food was considered a luxury and a convenience; all of our dogs were fed what ever healthy table scraps were left over. Not one dog ever visited the vet aside from emergencies, they all lived well into their late teen's, and I'm not talking 14-15yrs, they were all on the edge of or into their 20's.
All this said however, to each his own, I have no issues with what anyone else has chosen or chooses, this is only my experience.
I will say there are some super quality foods on the market, Innova, Orijen, etc. that are proving to be excellent sources along with reputable ingredients.
IMHO, all one really needs to do, when choosing a dry food, is look at the ingredients, if *you* are willing or not willing to eat what's in the bag, why should your dog.
If you're thinking, *heck, it's only a dog*...why honestly did you adopt it in the first place if you're referring to the animal as *only* a dog.
Healthier food intake means less vet bills later.
and are you really gonna cook a meal for your dog?
I do. And I have no problems doing it either. In fact, cooking meals for them has actually proven to be more cost effective, better digested, etc. in our experience.
I make huge batches of food each Sunday and freeze it for the week. I should say however, I don't actually cook all the meats they get, some are cooked, some are raw. Doesn't bother them a bit....and I've actually found they digest fresh foods better then they ever did dry dog food.
We have 3 dogs, one 60# 2yr old, and 2 small dogs - they get absolutely no grains, just meat and veggies and they're thriving.
As a child growing up, the actual thought of *purchasing* a bag of dog food was considered a luxury and a convenience; all of our dogs were fed what ever healthy table scraps were left over. Not one dog ever visited the vet aside from emergencies, they all lived well into their late teen's, and I'm not talking 14-15yrs, they were all on the edge of or into their 20's.
All this said however, to each his own, I have no issues with what anyone else has chosen or chooses, this is only my experience.
I will say there are some super quality foods on the market, Innova, Orijen, etc. that are proving to be excellent sources along with reputable ingredients.
IMHO, all one really needs to do, when choosing a dry food, is look at the ingredients, if *you* are willing or not willing to eat what's in the bag, why should your dog.
If you're thinking, *heck, it's only a dog*...why honestly did you adopt it in the first place if you're referring to the animal as *only* a dog.
Healthier food intake means less vet bills later.
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