Cold temps, blown engine

[PWMDMD]

Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Some employees are just huge corporate behind kissers. I once went to return a thermostat/housing assembly that was not working correctly and the parts guy was convinced we we're returning the old used part because the sticker label on it was nicked during install. The fact that this parts was clearly brand new and labeled with the part manufacturers info did not dissuade him. He became extraordinarily irate and we had to leave and go return to another store.

When we got to another store, the manager there told us he had received "calls about this" from the other store. He examined the part for about a second and processed the return after starting he didn't care what the other guy had to say.

I have no idea what makes people this way, but they are out there. I just assume they are cut from the same cloth as people who carry fake badges and try to involve themselves in everyone's business.


Yeah I've encountered similar people. If I was the owner/manager of this dealership I wouldn't be happy my service writer was attempting to blowup a relationship over something like this. Too many customer service people approach their jobs as if the customer is an adversary.


You modify your car and something like this happens then I get it. I'm still not buying thick oil and/or cold could do this without an underlying manufacturing problem.

 

[PWMDMD]

Originally Posted by 69Torino
Originally Posted by OilUzer
what if someone (e.g. a high school kid) revs up & red lines excessively in 1st, 2nd & 3rd gear and kept it past red zone and destroyed the engine?
I can see dealers covering the cold case due to publicity ... but what about abuse when the engine is warm? Does the ECU store rpm/gear history & the intervals?


Short answer to this is no, but as was mentioned at the top of page 5 of this thread (not quoting out of pure laziness) the ECU does store what is called "freeze frame data", which is a snapshot of operating conditions at the time of failure, only if a diagnostic trouble code is set. So if it set the code at the exact moment of failure, I.E. at 5,500 rpm, in second gear, with ambient temp and coolant temp matching at negative something Fahrenheit, the tech could see this information and upload a screenshot to the manufacturer. This would be abuse, and grounds for denial of warranty coverage. More PID's that are worthy to look at when determining the cause of a failure are throttle angle, load percent, vehicle speed and wheel speed. Think about it. If rear wheel speed in a Mustang is 60 or 80 mph and front wheel speed is zero, what was the owner likely doing???


This is all still gray stuff to me...

So the guy in the mustang was doing burnouts? When does that constitute abuse and denial of coverage? Can I floor my car to get up to speed once a day? How about twice? What if I live my entire life doing 0-30 or 45 or 60 or 75 every time I accelerate? If at the time of failure my engine is under heavy load and at 6500 rpm is that abuse?

My 2014 Audi S5 had launch control. The owner's manual said something to the effect of launch control can be used for a limited number of times (never specified number) and excessive use (never specified) could be grounds to void warranty coverage. What?! Why include it at all then? If engines blow up when rev'd cold why not limit revs until the engine is warm enough? My guess is because cold Erving is not the most proximal cause of failure. It may have contributed but it's not the cause.

 

[OilUzer]

Originally Posted by PWMDMD
Originally Posted by 69Torino
Originally Posted by OilUzer
what if someone (e.g. a high school kid) revs up & red lines excessively in 1st, 2nd & 3rd gear and kept it past red zone and destroyed the engine?
I can see dealers covering the cold case due to publicity ... but what about abuse when the engine is warm? Does the ECU store rpm/gear history & the intervals?


Short answer to this is no, but as was mentioned at the top of page 5 of this thread (not quoting out of pure laziness) the ECU does store what is called "freeze frame data", which is a snapshot of operating conditions at the time of failure, only if a diagnostic trouble code is set. So if it set the code at the exact moment of failure, I.E. at 5,500 rpm, in second gear, with ambient temp and coolant temp matching at negative something Fahrenheit, the tech could see this information and upload a screenshot to the manufacturer. This would be abuse, and grounds for denial of warranty coverage. More PID's that are worthy to look at when determining the cause of a failure are throttle angle, load percent, vehicle speed and wheel speed. Think about it. If rear wheel speed in a Mustang is 60 or 80 mph and front wheel speed is zero, what was the owner likely doing???


This is all still gray stuff to me...

So the guy in the mustang was doing burnouts? When does that constitute abuse and denial of coverage? Can I floor my car to get up to speed once a day? How about twice? What if I live my entire life doing 0-30 or 45 or 60 or 75 every time I accelerate? If at the time of failure my engine is under heavy load and at 6500 rpm is that abuse?

My 2014 Audi S5 had launch control. The owner's manual said something to the effect of launch control can be used for a limited number of times (never specified number) and excessive use (never specified) could be grounds to void warranty coverage. What?! Why include it at all then? If engines blow up when rev'd cold why not limit revs until the engine is warm enough? My guess is because cold Erving is not the most proximal cause of failure. It may have contributed but it's not the cause.


ECU can easily limit the rpm when the engine is extremely cold ... But may run into other issues such as single sensor failure (e.g. Coolant or oil temp) inhibiting the driver or other liabilities in case of slowing down cold police car or medical emergency ... idk just a guess!

 

[mightymousetech]

The guy that did this deserves to have his man card revoked!

What a tool!

 

[rubberchicken]

Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
He is certainly NOT stupid, in fact he is pretty darn smart, but he knows his limitations.

But obviously not his vehicles.


Dude, really ? Every single one of your posts is attempted snark and unhelpful. If there was any witticism or humor to your replies, then at least you would be contributing something to the discussion.
Either rise up and be a better troll, or step up and offer sound advice.

 

[rubberchicken]

" Why does the service writer even care ?"-

I can only speculate , based on conversations with a good friend of mine who is a dealer mechanic, that they get paid significantly more if its a dealer COD rather than a warranty repair.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by rubberchicken
" Why does the service writer even care ?"-

I can only speculate , based on conversations with a good friend of mine who is a dealer mechanic, that they get paid significantly more if its a dealer COD rather than a warranty repair.


From a friend who works at the dealer, they much prefer customer pay over warranty pay, as customer pay is on average 1.4-1.7x higher than what warranty pay is. Tech makes more money that way.

Also, some dealers/manufacturers (FCA, I mean you) will look for any cause to deny a warranty. FCA has been known to deny drivetrain coverage to people running those Pedal Commander modules (aka throttle booster). It basically takes all the "slop" out, which can cause some pretty heavy shock loads to the drivetrain.

Or on most of the 2015+ they'll throw a p1400 code, but it doesn't set a check engine light and sometimes won't even be read by a handheld scanner, and you have to swap the PCM with an unlocked one thanks to FCA's encryption, if you tune it. If you do see it with a code reader and try clearing it, it won't clear. The code doesn't go away if you swap the stock PCM back in either, as it gets stored in other modules in the vehicle as well. If the dealer did the warranty work anyway, and FCA found out, they wouldn't pay the dealer so the dealer would end up eating the cost.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by rubberchicken
Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
He is certainly NOT stupid, in fact he is pretty darn smart, but he knows his limitations.

But obviously not his vehicles.


Dude, really ? Every single one of your posts is attempted snark and unhelpful. If there was any witticism or humor to your replies, then at least you would be contributing something to the discussion.
Either rise up and be a better troll, or step up and offer sound advice.

Friend or not, what this guy did was inherently stupid with a capital S. Common sense dictates you do not do things like this. And if you are dumb enough to, you cannot realistically expect advice on how to get someone else to pay for it. Or expect to receive ANY sympathy to his cause. And as was said in previous posts, why are you so involved in this whole cluster F to begin with? You came in here posting this foolishness, what did you honestly expect? "Smart" people don't do dumb things like this. His actions were no accident.

And exactly what "sound advice" do you expect to get? Seeing as you can't teach common sense, how about you teach him how to start his car in cold weather, and drive it without blowing it up? If he is as "smart" as you say he is, I would think he should be able to catch on quickly. Like millions of other people do when operating a motor vehicle on a daily basis in frigid sub zero climates. And as far as getting his vehicle repaired, it should happen on his dime. Not the dealers or anyone else's.

 

[Shannow]

So Bill (bag full of hammers Bill)...how do you correlate a driver operating a modern, computer controlled engine within the factory offered performance envelope (they have ultimate control over everything through the ECU), with their approved viscosity of lubricant is responsible for a catastrophic failure ?

By te time you back out the driveway, you should be able to floor it and have "nothing blow up".

The "millions of people" that you cite could care less about the intricacies of their appliance of choice, and do similarly every single day...millions of people "floor it" cold...every single day.

 

[DejaVue]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

So if it set the code at the exact moment of failure, I.E. at 5,500 rpm, in second gear, with ambient temp and coolant temp matching at negative something Fahrenheit, the tech could see this information and upload a screenshot to the manufacturer. This would be abuse, and grounds for denial of warranty coverage.

That kind of happened to me the other day, and it was the car's fault. Driving away slowly from a stop in the cold and snow, with a car coming at me from a ways off so I wasn't overly concerned about it but I certainly didn't want to come to a standstill in the road, the tires apparently started to spin a little, the traction control kicked in hard and bogged things down, I instinctively pressed down on the gas to make the car move faster, a second or so later the traction control then turns off and then the tires do spin a decent bit, and I see the tachometer zip up to around 4500 for a moment before I jump off the gas.

It all happened very quickly while I was trying to baby the car. I'm used to accelerating with some wheelspin in the snow and walking the line between traction, wheelspin, acceleration, and throttle position. But the aggressive traction control took that away from me.

It's similar to driving for years on snow and ice without ABS, developing a feel for the brakes and how to keep the car in control, knowing when you should and shouldn't lock up the tires to stop faster, etc, ...but then if the car has ABS you're supposed to forget all of that and just stand on the brakes.

 

[rubberchicken]

Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
He is certainly NOT stupid, in fact he is pretty darn smart, but he knows his limitations.

But obviously not his vehicles.


Dude, really ? Every single one of your posts is attempted snark and unhelpful. If there was any witticism or humor to your replies, then at least you would be contributing something to the discussion.
Either rise up and be a better troll, or step up and offer sound advice.

Friend or not, what this guy did was inherently stupid with a capital S. Common sense dictates you do not do things like this. And if you are dumb enough to, you cannot realistically expect advice on how to get someone else to pay for it. Or expect to receive ANY sympathy to his cause. And as was said in previous posts, why are you so involved in this whole cluster F to begin with? You came in here posting this foolishness, what did you honestly expect? "Smart" people don't do dumb things like this. His actions were no accident.

And exactly what "sound advice" do you expect to get? Seeing as you can't teach common sense, how about you teach him how to start his car in cold weather, and drive it without blowing it up? If he is as "smart" as you say he is, I would think he should be able to catch on quickly. Like millions of other people do when operating a motor vehicle on a daily basis in frigid sub zero climates. And as far as getting his vehicle repaired, it should happen on his dime. Not the dealers or anyone else's.


Well, I see that when presented with the fork in road, you went left down Troll Lane, and ignored Helpful Ave. But I think you could still step up your troll level; this is not nearly your best work. And as I clearly stated in more than one post, when a friend asks for help and it is easily within your power to help, then why not help ? He contacted me, and right off the bat he said "I am over my head, and I am afraid they are taking advantage of me. Can you help me? Can you educate me on what to do". In fact I sent him a couple of videos, and some online resources, and he voraciously gobbled them up. I feel he is willing to pay if its his fault, although I am not sure he is able to pay, considering a new long block could be $6-10k in this case.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by Shannow
By te time you back out the driveway, you should be able to floor it and have "nothing blow up"....millions of people "floor it" cold...every single day.

Keep telling yourself that. At some point even you'll not only start to believe it, but you will end up thinking it's smart...... Just like his friend.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by rubberchicken
Well, I see that when presented with the fork in road, you went left down Troll Lane, and ignored Helpful Ave.

You want to take a trip down, "Helpful Ave."? Tell your friend to drive his car properly. And he won't be faced with $6 - $10K repair bills from operating it foolishly.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted by carviewsonic
My '66 Chev Impala had a blue light with 'COLD' lettered on the lens. I wish my current cars had that feature, for the other family members who aren't as sympathetic to a cold engine as I am.

My Forester has a little blue temperature light that seems to kick off when the oil temp hits around 90F, not sure if that light is triggered by low oil or coolant temp, though.
It is a nice little reminder, I always have oil temp up anyway but somehow the blue has an enhanced psychological effect...

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted by carviewsonic
My '66 Chev Impala had a blue light with 'COLD' lettered on the lens. I wish my current cars had that feature, for the other family members who aren't as sympathetic to a cold engine as I am.

My Forester has a little blue temperature light that seems to kick off when the oil temp hits around 90F, not sure if that light is triggered by low oil or coolant temp, though.
It is a nice little reminder, I always have oil temp up anyway but somehow the blue has an enhanced psychological effect...





Our Mazda has this as well.

 

[53' Stude]

Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted by carviewsonic
My '66 Chev Impala had a blue light with 'COLD' lettered on the lens. I wish my current cars had that feature, for the other family members who aren't as sympathetic to a cold engine as I am.

My Forester has a little blue temperature light that seems to kick off when the oil temp hits around 90F, not sure if that light is triggered by low oil or coolant temp, though.
It is a nice little reminder, I always have oil temp up anyway but somehow the blue has an enhanced psychological effect...



The blue light is for coolant

 

[rubberchicken]

Originally Posted by OilUzer
How many miles on the old oil? gdi engine?
Get a little oil and put it in the freezer even though it maybe -2°F in freezer, you can tell a lot. it can turn into Wax or does it flow?


I forgot to mention- this is good advice.

 

[rubberchicken]

Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
Well, I see that when presented with the fork in road, you went left down Troll Lane, and ignored Helpful Ave.

You want to take a trip down, "Helpful Ave."? Tell your friend to drive his car properly. And he won't be faced with $6 - $10K repair bills from operating it foolishly.


FInally, thanks !! I had not considered advising him to let his car warm a bit in really cold temps, in order to prevent excessive wear at cold startup. Its a good thing I did not totally dismiss your advice, because you came up with a gem.

 

[rubberchicken]

RESOLVED: The factory zone rep called me this morning advising me they are tearing into the engine further. This afternoon I spoke to the owner and service manager today, and most likely they are covering the repair 100%. What they found when they pulled off the oil pump was a broken piece of thin metal, which blocked off 90% of the oil flow on the inlet side of the oil pump. The piece would be almost impossible to introduce from on top of the engine, then get past the oil pickup. The few sample bearings they examined showed a lot of wear, the crank is questionable, and the oil filter media was littered with glitter. Their theory was that this was just a latent production problem that finally exploded on a cold day: the low temps may have contributed to the failure but it was not a root cause. The filter was probably in bypass mode for a very long time, but there was no obvious failure with the oil filter. One thing they did was put a used sample in a freezer, along with a control sample from their own brand 5w30 and 0w20, then see how it flowed. He said if anything the used oil flowed better. Some of the noise was from the valve train, and there were score marks on the cylinders, so they feel there is not much to reuse from the original engine. I am supposed to get some pics tomorrow. I actually spoke to the mechanic for a few minutes who provided some more details, but he danced around a few of the questions because its the service managers job to deal with the customer, not his- since they already said they would cover it, I did not press him too hard. There is no record of any engine repairs other than routine maintenance and a recall repair, so its unlikely it was a mechanic mistake.

Its going to take a few days for proper approvals and for a replacement engine to arrive, so it will probably be next week before the repair is completed. They are giving him a loaner car in the meantime. The service manager was really cool guy to speak with: his parting words were "I also recommend you tell your buddy to replace the windshield wipers, the parts are $9712 but we will comp the labor.".

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by rubberchicken
What they found when they pulled off the oil pump was a broken piece of thin metal, which blocked off 90% of the oil flow on the inlet side of the oil pump. The piece would be almost impossible to introduce from on top of the engine, then get past the oil pickup. The few sample bearings they examined showed a lot of wear, the crank is questionable, and the oil filter media was littered with glitter. Their theory was that this was just a latent production problem that finally exploded on a cold day: the low temps may have contributed to the failure but it was not a root cause.


Yep ... as first thought. Did they have any idea where that piece of metal came from?