Caution UOA - PP 10W30 6881m on 2001 Jeep 4.0

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
27,546
Location
Near the beach in Delaware
This reman engine now has about 75K on it. The filter that was in place was a MicroGreen. Unsure what to say about the filter and its abilities. NAPA testing marked this as "CAUTION".
Html:
Test#	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8
Mileage	9622	5184	5606	5334	5679	6985	8195	6881						
Iron 	146	43	26	28	55   	50	84	75
Chrom 	4	1	1	1	1   	1	4	2
Nickel	1	0	0	0	0  	0 	<1	<1	
Alum 	4	1	1	1	2   	3	10	8
Copper  23	12	16	20	24	17	26	22
Lead    15	8	4	3	47 	31	16	56
Tin     2	1	1	1	2	2 	2	4
Cadmi   0	0	0	0	0	0		
Silv    0	0	0	0	0 	0	<1	<1
Vanad   0	0	0	0	0	0	<1	<1
Silicon 25	12	13	8	12	13 	27	19
Sodiu   18	6	6	9	15 	10	19	86
Potas   6	1	5	0	0 	3	7	1
Titan   0	1	0	0	0 	0	<1	<1
Moly    61	58	67	62      61	46 	59	58
Antim   1	0	0	1	0 	1	
Mang    2	0	0	0	0 	0	
Lith    0	0	0	0	0	0	
Boron   280	163	30	21	23	8	212	30
Magn  	14	14	892	1041	1049	207	65	27
Calc  	3611	2651	1008	814	737	2170	2928	2660
Bari   	0	0	0	0	0	0	<1	<1
Phos	772	723	868	942	921  	721	730	750
Zinc  	923	864	1103	1189	1143	897	914	871
Fuel	<1	<1	2.2	2.0	<1	2.1	
Soot	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	.4
Water	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	<0.05	<0.05
[email protected]	11.1	10.2	12.9	13.3	13.5	10.9	10.2	9.9
TBN   	3.4	4.47	4.22	NES	4.13	3.49	3.0	3.4
Oxi    	20	25	17	NES	30	18
Nit     16	12	13	NES	14  	13

(first to last) (all tests done by Polaris unless otherwise noted)
Test#1 PU
Test#2 PU
Test#3 T6
Test#4 T6
Test#5 T6
Test#6 PP
Test#7 PP (test done by NAPA)
I assume its still a situation where a bearing is going south.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
8,856
Location
Texas
Hard to say what's going on without a consistent trend. The sudden jump in lead over one OCI could be a "scar" event where a piece of grit passed through a bearing and pumped out a pulse of lead wear, which could easily subside again over time. I wouldn't ever pull an engine from service based on UOAs unless there were corroborating evidence- dropping oil pressure, bearing knock, etc. You know my solution for Jeep 4.0s... Rotella T6 and an Ultra or RoyalPurple filter makes 'em last forever.
 
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
3,213
Location
Kentucky
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
You know my solution for Jeep 4.0s... Rotella T6 and an Ultra or RoyalPurple filter makes 'em last forever.
What have you observed with T6 that makes it superior? What size filter do you run?
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Messages
99
Location
MA
i use the XG8A ultra and t6 5-40 winter and on my reman i used 15-40 for break in. 30 mins at 2500.. 15-40 for 1000mi. and now t6 for 5000 on this oci. will likley use 15-40 next OC and an XG8A 6.5qts * i used purolator p30001 for break in and 1000mi run. but tearing talk. i went and got an ultra XG8A fwiw.
 
Last edited:

Donald

Thread starter
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
27,546
Location
Near the beach in Delaware
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Hard to say what's going on without a consistent trend. The sudden jump in lead over one OCI could be a "scar" event where a piece of grit passed through a bearing and pumped out a pulse of lead wear, which could easily subside again over time. I wouldn't ever pull an engine from service based on UOAs unless there were corroborating evidence- dropping oil pressure, bearing knock, etc. You know my solution for Jeep 4.0s... Rotella T6 and an Ultra or RoyalPurple filter makes 'em last forever.
Look back a couple of oil changes, the lead has been high in the past.
 

Donald

Thread starter
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
27,546
Location
Near the beach in Delaware
One knowledgeable person told me that in a straight 6 you need to have the crank better balanced than a 4 cyl or V8 due to its physical long length. I am thinking that the engine was just not reman as well as it could/should have been.
 
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
7,636
Location
Connecticut
It's hard to tell what is going on here. In #7 it seems the aluminum tripled compared to the other UOAs, and the Lead seems to be increasing. I've run T6, M1, and PP in my Jeep. All of them seemed pretty noisy, and with the T6 my oil pressure seemed to be sky high all the time. Not saying this had any negative effects on the engine, but I'm wondering how this engine would respond to a conventional. Both me and KCJeep have had excellent UOAs with PYB in our 4.0s with low aluminum and iron wear. It might be worth a shot to do a ~4000 mile OCI with PYB and see how it looks. Here are a few PYB 4.0 UOAs: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2943687 http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3256885/Jeep_4.0_PYB_10w30_UOA http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3600263/Jeep_4.0L_-_PYB_10w-30_(first_
 
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Messages
7,998
Originally Posted By: Donald
This reman engine now has about 75K on it. The filter that was in place was a MicroGreen. Unsure what to say about the filter and its abilities. NAPA testing marked this as "CAUTION".
Html:
Test#	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8
Mileage	9622	5184	5606	5334	5679	6985	8195	6881						
Iron 	146	43	26	28	55   	50	84	75
Chrom 	4	1	1	1	1   	1	4	2
Nickel	1	0	0	0	0  	0 	<1	<1	
Alum 	4	1	1	1	2   	3	10	8
Copper  23	12	16	20	24	17	26	22
Lead    15	8	4	3	47 	31	16	56
Tin     2	1	1	1	2	2 	2	4
Cadmi   0	0	0	0	0	0		
Silv    0	0	0	0	0 	0	<1	<1
Vanad   0	0	0	0	0	0	<1	<1
Silicon 25	12	13	8	12	13 	27	19
Sodiu   18	6	6	9	15 	10	19	86
Potas   6	1	5	0	0 	3	7	1
Titan   0	1	0	0	0 	0	<1	<1
Moly    61	58	67	62      61	46 	59	58
Antim   1	0	0	1	0 	1	
Mang    2	0	0	0	0 	0	
Lith    0	0	0	0	0	0	
Boron   280	163	30	21	23	8	212	30
Magn  	14	14	892	1041	1049	207	65	27
Calc  	3611	2651	1008	814	737	2170	2928	2660
Bari   	0	0	0	0	0	0	<1	<1
Phos	772	723	868	942	921  	721	730	750
Zinc  	923	864	1103	1189	1143	897	914	871
Fuel	<1	<1	2.2	2.0	<1	2.1	
Soot	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	.4
Water	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	<0.05	<0.05
[email protected]	11.1	10.2	12.9	13.3	13.5	10.9	10.2	9.9
TBN   	3.4	4.47	4.22	NES	4.13	3.49	3.0	3.4
Oxi    	20	25	17	NES	30	18
Nit     16	12	13	NES	14  	13

(first to last) (all tests done by Polaris unless otherwise noted)
Test#1 PU
Test#2 PU
Test#3 T6
Test#4 T6
Test#5 T6
Test#6 PP
Test#7 PP (test done by NAPA)
I assume its still a situation where a bearing is going south.
It's kind of all over - but since this is the first set of UOAs on a reman 4.0 and low miles, it could be the 4.0 breakin routine. Or it could be a bearing. Either way, I'd be using the T6 and whatever oil filter you used in samples 3 and 4, compare apples to apples for a couple OCIs.
 
Last edited:

Donald

Thread starter
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
27,546
Location
Near the beach in Delaware
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: Donald
This reman engine now has about 75K on it. The filter that was in place was a MicroGreen. Unsure what to say about the filter and its abilities. NAPA testing marked this as "CAUTION".
Html:
Test#	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8
Mileage	9622	5184	5606	5334	5679	6985	8195	6881						
Iron 	146	43	26	28	55   	50	84	75
Chrom 	4	1	1	1	1   	1	4	2
Nickel	1	0	0	0	0  	0 	<1	<1	
Alum 	4	1	1	1	2   	3	10	8
Copper  23	12	16	20	24	17	26	22
Lead    15	8	4	3	47 	31	16	56
Tin     2	1	1	1	2	2 	2	4
Cadmi   0	0	0	0	0	0		
Silv    0	0	0	0	0 	0	<1	<1
Vanad   0	0	0	0	0	0	<1	<1
Silicon 25	12	13	8	12	13 	27	19
Sodiu   18	6	6	9	15 	10	19	86
Potas   6	1	5	0	0 	3	7	1
Titan   0	1	0	0	0 	0	<1	<1
Moly    61	58	67	62      61	46 	59	58
Antim   1	0	0	1	0 	1	
Mang    2	0	0	0	0 	0	
Lith    0	0	0	0	0	0	
Boron   280	163	30	21	23	8	212	30
Magn  	14	14	892	1041	1049	207	65	27
Calc  	3611	2651	1008	814	737	2170	2928	2660
Bari   	0	0	0	0	0	0	<1	<1
Phos	772	723	868	942	921  	721	730	750
Zinc  	923	864	1103	1189	1143	897	914	871
Fuel	<1	<1	2.2	2.0	<1	2.1	
Soot	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	.4
Water	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	<0.05	<0.05
[email protected]	11.1	10.2	12.9	13.3	13.5	10.9	10.2	9.9
TBN   	3.4	4.47	4.22	NES	4.13	3.49	3.0	3.4
Oxi    	20	25	17	NES	30	18
Nit     16	12	13	NES	14  	13

(first to last) (all tests done by Polaris unless otherwise noted)
Test#1 PU
Test#2 PU
Test#3 T6
Test#4 T6
Test#5 T6
Test#6 PP
Test#7 PP (test done by NAPA)
I assume its still a situation where a bearing is going south.
It's kind of all over - but since this is the first set of UOAs on a reman 4.0 and low miles, it could be the 4.0 breakin routine. Or it could be a bearing. Either way, I'd be using the T6 and whatever oil filter you used in samples 3 and 4, compare apples to apples for a couple OCIs.
Your reading it wrong. I did not start any UOAs until it had about 20K miles on the reman engine. Now it has 75K or so. The mileage listed is for that particular OCI.
 
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
3,117
Location
Virginia
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Hard to say what's going on without a consistent trend. The sudden jump in lead over one OCI could be a "scar" event where a piece of grit passed through a bearing and pumped out a pulse of lead wear, which could easily subside again over time. I wouldn't ever pull an engine from service based on UOAs unless there were corroborating evidence- dropping oil pressure, bearing knock, etc. You know my solution for Jeep 4.0s... Rotella T6 and an Ultra or RoyalPurple filter makes 'em last forever.
Agree with the no alarm until drop in OP or knock evidence. When it reaches that point, throw some bearings in it. I have no clue what oil will make it better, but thicker might make it last longer - so maybe a 5W,10W,15W-40 might be worth a try. It's possible there was dirt in the reman and you have a persistent particle streak - it may live another 100k like that - worry about it when it gets noisy or loses pressure.
 
Joined
Feb 25, 2003
Messages
500
Location
Vermont
Donald, any chance there's a coolant leak? Sodium is very high on your most recent sample, and might be high on some previous samples (depending on the VOAs for each of those oils). It's hard to say what might be going on, if anything. Other than tearing the motor down I don't think there's a way to diagnose the potential problem. If you do ever discover a problem, or if you ever open this engine up, I would love to know what you find and to see pics of the good and bad.
 

Donald

Thread starter
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
27,546
Location
Near the beach in Delaware
Originally Posted By: nicrfe1370
Donald, any chance there's a coolant leak? Sodium is very high on your most recent sample, and might be high on some previous samples (depending on the VOAs for each of those oils). It's hard to say what might be going on, if anything. Other than tearing the motor down I don't think there's a way to diagnose the potential problem. If you do ever discover a problem, or if you ever open this engine up, I would love to know what you find and to see pics of the good and bad.
The UOAs say "NO" for coolant so I have to think there is no coolant leak.
 
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
8,839
Location
Mahzurrah!
That is quite a spike. Hard to tell with this engine it has had fairly high "wear" numbers for a long time. I personally just don't think the Jeep 4.0 is all that great a match for the fancy syns you favor. I too would love to see what happens if you would run a couple of PYB or Pennzoil HM 5k OCI's. Then again with that spike who knows what to expect.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Messages
2,823
Location
PA
The 4.0's have a reputation for not responding well to certain 30wt oils. Though it's always with high iron, not lead. I'd guess you got so-so rebuild.
 

Donald

Thread starter
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
27,546
Location
Near the beach in Delaware
Could the main bearings be replaced by dropping the oil pan or does the engine need to be pulled. Or maybe the issue is probably with the crankshaft and new bearing would just have the same thing happen again. The rod bearings could be replaced by just dropping the oil pan I assume.
 

Donald

Thread starter
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
27,546
Location
Near the beach in Delaware
I know people have suggested their favorite oil for this engine, but test 4 & 5 were both using T6 and there was a lead spike in test 5. So I am not sure any motor oil would have much of an effect on the copper and lead containment issues.
 
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Messages
7,998
Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: Donald
This reman engine now has about 75K on it. The filter that was in place was a MicroGreen. Unsure what to say about the filter and its abilities. NAPA testing marked this as "CAUTION".
Html:
Test#	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8
Mileage	9622	5184	5606	5334	5679	6985	8195	6881						
Iron 	146	43	26	28	55   	50	84	75
Chrom 	4	1	1	1	1   	1	4	2
Nickel	1	0	0	0	0  	0 	<1	<1	
Alum 	4	1	1	1	2   	3	10	8
Copper  23	12	16	20	24	17	26	22
Lead    15	8	4	3	47 	31	16	56
Tin     2	1	1	1	2	2 	2	4
Cadmi   0	0	0	0	0	0		
Silv    0	0	0	0	0 	0	<1	<1
Vanad   0	0	0	0	0	0	<1	<1
Silicon 25	12	13	8	12	13 	27	19
Sodiu   18	6	6	9	15 	10	19	86
Potas   6	1	5	0	0 	3	7	1
Titan   0	1	0	0	0 	0	<1	<1
Moly    61	58	67	62      61	46 	59	58
Antim   1	0	0	1	0 	1	
Mang    2	0	0	0	0 	0	
Lith    0	0	0	0	0	0	
Boron   280	163	30	21	23	8	212	30
Magn  	14	14	892	1041	1049	207	65	27
Calc  	3611	2651	1008	814	737	2170	2928	2660
Bari   	0	0	0	0	0	0	<1	<1
Phos	772	723	868	942	921  	721	730	750
Zinc  	923	864	1103	1189	1143	897	914	871
Fuel	<1	<1	2.2	2.0	<1	2.1	
Soot	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	.4
Water	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	<.1	<0.05	<0.05
[email protected]	11.1	10.2	12.9	13.3	13.5	10.9	10.2	9.9
TBN   	3.4	4.47	4.22	NES	4.13	3.49	3.0	3.4
Oxi    	20	25	17	NES	30	18
Nit     16	12	13	NES	14  	13

(first to last) (all tests done by Polaris unless otherwise noted)
Test#1 PU
Test#2 PU
Test#3 T6
Test#4 T6
Test#5 T6
Test#6 PP
Test#7 PP (test done by NAPA)
I assume its still a situation where a bearing is going south.
It's kind of all over - but since this is the first set of UOAs on a reman 4.0 and low miles, it could be the 4.0 breakin routine. Or it could be a bearing. Either way, I'd be using the T6 and whatever oil filter you used in samples 3 and 4, compare apples to apples for a couple OCIs.
You're reading it wrong. I did not start any UOAs until it had about 20K miles on the reman engine. Now it has 75K or so. The mileage listed is for that particular OCI.
Sorry, but I did get that the engine's got 75k on it ....and making a too-subtle comment about the 4.0's longevity in general by saying it's still breaking in. I'd still go with the T6 and filters from samples 3 and 4, and see what the next couple of UOAs look like. Although the iron looks ok at uppers 20s the lead is definitely a "?". Both were lowest with the T6.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
8,839
Location
Mahzurrah!
Originally Posted By: Donald
I know people have suggested their favorite oil for this engine, but test 4 & 5 were both using T6 and there was a lead spike in test 5. So I am not sure any motor oil would have much of an effect on the copper and lead containment issues.
Agreed. I sure wouldn't tear into any engine based on a UOA alone. It may run another 100k like this without the slightest apparent issue.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top