Castrol TWS 10w60 - Where to buy in Canada?

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Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
IMO it is wise to use the lowest viscosity lubricant recommended by BMW for your application. You may NOT NEED the 10W-60 viscosity


What are your thoughts on TWS's HTHS viscosity of 5.4 cP versus the M1 xW-40's 3.8?
 
Hi,
Ben99GT - Mostly 10W-60 viscosity lubricants have been developed "race lubricants" and their structure was driven by fuel dilution and known consumption rates

Now in some modern engines higher than "normal" fuel dilution rates abound. In some tests up to 20% have been noted and monitored without a serious diminition in engine life

We know about the past BMW "problem" that was more of a one off situation and today they are "experimenting" with very low viscosity lubricants. This is largely being done on the race track!

It is clear that using a lubricant with a HTHS viscosity of 5.4cP when not required has some negative results. This especially applies to engines with sophiosticated valve train actuaters and the like.

In the case of the original ester based Castrol product under durability tests it performed very well in extended drains - out to 250kkms (155k miles) for instance in small high speed diesels! It was especially good in air cooled industrial engines IIRC! But these engines were not the same as many engine families made today

I used it for many years as my base lubricant from 1978 until around 1996 - and in a variety of engine families. The longest was out ro around 200kkms and oil consumption was zero!

The best engine performance for the average user is provided by the lowest viscosity recommended by the engine's Manufacturer
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
I couldn't tell you one Bimmer from another,

Unfortunately that is fairly important to the discussion at hand. The M5 engine has very specific oil requirements, different from most other BMW engines.
 
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,

I used it for many years as my base lubricant from 1978 until around 1996 - and in a variety of engine families. The longest was out ro around 200kkms and oil consumption was zero!




Doug, what kinds of motors did you run it in? Would you say this oil should really just be used in the BMW M motors it is spec'd for, or can you recommend it for other high-performance engines?
 
Hi,
Dan - Well firstly, my formal testing was done in these# engine Brands:

#Diesels;
Kubota (3 & 4 cyl)
Yanmar
Isuzu (C201)
MB (various)

Petrol (AC = air cooled)
#Onan (AC)
Mitsubishi (6G72 mainly)
BMW (AC)
BMW (various)
VW 2ltr
#Nissan (3 litre)

No issues were ever experienced with this product in 15W-50 (full diester) SE or 10W-60 (ester/PAO) viscosity as it has progressed to today. In its 15W-50 form it was red and had the characteristic castor exhaust odour (great, just like the MC race days as a teenager)

Some hundreds of UOAs# and tear down inspections were involved and 2000hr OCIs were the common denominator

Secondly, if the oil is specifically recommended by BMW then IMO it should be used!

BWM in NA recommend either the TWS or Formula RS (LL-01) versions for all S54, S62, S65 and S85 engines. If unavailable then 10W-40, 5W-50 or 10W-50 synthetics (Sj/Cf or SL/CF) may be used

For the S62 engine:
Castrol Germany recommends:
1998-2000 - Formula RS 10W-60
2000-2003 - 0W-30, 5W-30,0W-40 or a semi synthetic 5W-30

Mobil Australia recommends M1 0W-40

To me this suggests that M1 0W-40 or Delvac 1 5W-40 are good alternatives for normal use beyond MY2000

I can recommend Castrol's 10W-60 products for racing - they are the common products amongst privateers in Germany for instance - almost regardless of engine brand!
 
You didn't have any concerns running something that thick in those motors? That was always my biggest concern about switching to a 50 during race season.
 
Hi,
dparm - Yes, we did have concerns. The Tests were always positive and duarbility was well proven - fuel economy well that was another issue

Many of the Test engines were on stop-start-stop cycles driven by engine coolant and other critical non-engine temperatures

I have great respect for these Castrol lubricants but others have come of age for normal (non specified) use. The range of 0W-40 lubricants being just one aspect
 
We don't drive sports cars for their gas-sipping qualities. :)

What do you mean by "stop-start-stop cycles driven by engine coolant and other critical non-engine temperatures".
 
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Hi,
Dan - The coolant and oil temp had a minimum (auto engine restart) around 50C and the max (auto engine shutdown) was at 120C IIRC. Other temperature parameters included those from the loading devices - a min and a max. As well, the loading device had four modes of operation, low and high speed light load, and high and low speed full load. The oil's temperature (as per coolant) was used in air cooled engines

Operating ambient temperatures ranged from -10C to +45C with windchill down around -20C

If the loading device required no input and the engine temp was at say 90C the device would shut down the engine until it sought input again or until the engine's coolant or oil temp reached 50C. The cycle would then recommence.

Other engines were in "normal" use with full ambient cold start cycles etc

All Test engine families were subjected to this for around 12 month and a regularised UOA programme was in place at all times

Unless mandated by the Manufacturer I would not be using a 10W-60 viscosity lubricant!

As a matter of interest, Porsche removed the 10W-60 and all SAE30 viscosities from its Approved List (then backdated to 1974) (non VW derived engine families) in MY1999
 
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

Unless mandated by the Manufacturer I would not be using a 10W-60 viscosity lubricant!




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...
 
BMWUSA states this:

If Castrol High Performance Synthetic Oil is not available and you need to add oil between oil changes, only use synthetic oils with the following specifications for M vehicles:

Viscosity - preferred SAE 10W-60

Alternative - SAE 10W-40, SAE 5W-50 or SAE 10W-50

 
m6pwr: can you tell me more about the dose ofoil additive in tws? Isn't it a PAO and esther mixed oil?
Just filled my alfa boxer up with castrol tws 10w60.
Thanks

Originally Posted By: m6pwr
Don't know why all the fuss and confusion. BMW NA says to use either TWS 10w60 or Castrol RS 10w60 in the M5 S62 engine: http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx.

I think TWS is a great oil - - ester base stock with maybe a dose of castor oil additive (like the old RS), probably the best anti-wear additive around. I can get it at my SoCal dealer for around $11 a litre. Considering the quality of the oil, I think that its a fantastic deal. I wish I could have used it in my last BMW with the oil-killing (5w30) N54 twin turbo, direct injection motor.

At last year's ADAC races at the Nurburgring, Doug Hilliary said that many of the BMW private teams, and all the M3 cars of the factory race team, ran with TWS, and that many of the VW and Audi teams did as well, including an Audi R8. What's the problem?
 
Yes, I believe the current TWS is a base stock blend of primarily ester with some PAO. I don't know for sure whether TWS currently contains any castor bean ester, but it was developed from Castrol RS which I believe did (I think Doug Hillary's posts in this thread say as much). I believe TWS was jointly "fixed" by BMW & Castrol when the Castrol RS went from being ester based to PAO and BMW wanted to krrp the old formulation for the new e46 M3 in 2000 or 2001. I know it must have some kind of outstanding anti-wear additive because I found (doing a VOA) that it has realtively low zddp (around 700 ppm) for a performance oil (but that's good for low deposits). I remember I had a 2001 e46 M3 and the BMW dealers for a while carried Castrol RS 10w60 for the new M3 and then suddenly began using an oil that appeared in bottles labeled TWS (ten W sixty?). Even though it's an "old" formulation now I think it's still an excellent oil for any engine where the oem calls for that kind of viscosity. As Doug indicated, it's still used by many teams as a racing lubricant, including the BMW factory teams.
 
Thanks.
I wrote to castrol and they confirmed the zddp content is about 1000 ppm now. The RS has just a little more. Phosperous about 900. I don't have a catalytic but do have flat tappets.
I believe having a thinner oil in these old boxers does more damage than a zddp level less than 1000.
It's shame the TWS doesn't have more like the mobil 15w50 o the new edge syntec which isn't available here. Only the 5w40 which is too thin for my engine.

Originally Posted By: m6pwr
Yes, I believe the current TWS is a base stock blend of primarily ester with some PAO. I don't know for sure whether TWS currently contains any castor bean ester, but it was developed from Castrol RS which I believe did (I think Doug Hillary's posts in this thread say as much). I believe TWS was jointly "fixed" by BMW & Castrol when the Castrol RS went from being ester based to PAO and BMW wanted to krrp the old formulation for the new e46 M3 in 2000 or 2001. I know it must have some kind of outstanding anti-wear additive because I found (doing a VOA) that it has realtively low zddp (around 700 ppm) for a performance oil (but that's good for low deposits). I remember I had a 2001 e46 M3 and the BMW dealers for a while carried Castrol RS 10w60 for the new M3 and then suddenly began using an oil that appeared in bottles labeled TWS (ten W sixty?). Even though it's an "old" formulation now I think it's still an excellent oil for any engine where the oem calls for that kind of viscosity. As Doug indicated, it's still used by many teams as a racing lubricant, including the BMW factory teams.
 
I've ran Mobil 0W40 in my M3 for the past three months (2000mi and counting)...so far so good.

I will send the oil sample to Blackstone after 2000mi.
 
Hi,
Leonardo629 - M1 0W-40 is the correct Mobil lubricant for your car. It will perform very well

In many BMW engine families for instance the ill fated Castrol SLX 0W-30 (GC) was recommended in 1998 and into >2000. This viscosity was/is being used in developement and recommendations today

The 10W-60 viscosity fits into a unique and small package of BMW engines. Accordingly it should only be used where mandated by BMW - perhaps these "M" engines: S39,S54,S65 and S85 are some!
 
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