5w20 is priced the same here as the regualar conevetional oil - Valvoline, Citgo, Penzoil - No difference in price. Valvoline and Penzoil around 1.70 or so, Citgo around $1 and some change.
Can Not Using 5W-20 Ruin Your New Ford Engine
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True in this regard: Ford requires either a double-length (160 hours) Sequence IIIF test or a double-length (128 hours) Sequence IIIE test with a maximum viscosity increase of 200%. The corresponding limits for the single-length tests are 275% maximum and 375% maximum, respectively. In addition, Ford’s limit for high temperature deposits in the TEOST MHT-4 test is 30 mg maximum compared with 45 mg maximum allowed under API SL/ILSAC GF-3. The Sequence IIIF engine test as part of ILSAC GF-3 replaces the Sequence IIIE engine test. This test evaluates oil thickening, piston deposits, and valve train wear under high speed, high temperature conditions. Test length has been increased from 64 hours to 80 hours, and pass/fail limits have been tightened. Maximum viscosity increase has been reduced from 375% at 64 hours to 275% at 80 hours.
http://www.76lubricants.com/cmc_upload/EDITORIAL/0/000/017/869/tn3_4.pdf
Ken
[ March 10, 2003, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Ken2 ]
Bill in Utah...thank you for actually reading my post! You are correct, the point I was trying to make is that oil thins when hot. So how can a HOT 5w30 harm an engine when a thicker, COLD 5w20 is fine at start-up? Thanks for jumping in!
Cold 5W-20 is thinner than cold 5W-30.
hot 5W-20 is thinner than hot 5W-30.
As for the prices - 5W-20 is consistently at $1.70+ per quart while 5W-30 dino is around $1-$1.3/qt.
Pennzoil 5W-20 is at least $1.66/qt in my area, you will not find 5W-20 for $1/qt in this area of NJ. I tried just out of curiosity.
As a 2002 Ford truck owner I'll keep using the Ford 5W-20 oil until the warranty is up. At the same time I'm having the oil analyzed to make sure it's not causing problems. So far so good, according to Terry. Plus other Ford truck owners using Ford 5W-20 oil have reported good results on this site. As far as using a 5W-30 or a 10W-30 synthetc I think you'll be fine. However a 10W-30 dino oil might not be the best for cold starts, with these SOHC engines. You'll know if you hear a clacking sound when starting the engine cold. Of course the damage is being done at that point. And if you think I'm paying a bloody fortune for Ford oil changes, I'm not. It costs me $23/with taxes for an oil/filter change & under carriage and general fluid inspection at the dealer. The oil comes out of 1 quart bottles or the gallon jugs of Ford 5W-20 motor oil, which ever they have handy. It never comes from "bulk" drums. I watch them do the oil change. After the warranty is up then I'll decide what oil is best for me. I'm not wedded to the Ford 5W-20 oil, but while under warranty I'll use it.
Whimsey
Whimsey
Wouldn't 5@-30 Mobil full synthetic offer as good or at least similar fuel economy benefits as a 5W-20 blend? That is what Mobil 1 told me.
Also, wouldn't a full synthetic 5W-30 like Mobi1 offer at least as much protection at start up as a 5W-20 blend?
[ March 10, 2003, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Americanflag ]
Also, wouldn't a full synthetic 5W-30 like Mobi1 offer at least as much protection at start up as a 5W-20 blend?
[ March 10, 2003, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Americanflag ]
Patman
Staff member
For all intents and purposes, Mobil 1 5w30 is practically a 5w20 anyways. It's only 0.4cst thicker than a 5w20. The difference in fuel economy between 5w30 Mobil 1 and most 5w20s on the market wouldn't even be more than 1/10th of one MPG.quote:
Originally posted by Americanflag:
Wouldn't 5@-30 Mobil full synthetic offer as good or at least similar fuel economy benefits as a 5W-20 blend? That is what Mobil 1 told me.
Also, wouldn't a full synthetic 5W-30 like Mobi1 offer at least as much protection at start up as a 5W-20 blend?
As far as startup protection, in extreme cold Mobil 1 5w30 will outflow pretty much all the other 5w20s out there right now.
Both Amsoil and Mobil told me that the weight of the oil is only a fraction of the whole equation when relating to engine protection.(obviously) If the oils meet the Ford requirements, seq. III etc., then I'm sure the 20wt.s are fine.
Sometimes I think the "heavier is better" idea is simply not true. Is there any data that has shown a heavier wt. oil doing a better job protecting? If engines are becoming more efficient and more tightly built, a heavier oil might actually be bad for it and if Mobil has always been close to a 20wt., I'm not too concerned.
[ March 10, 2003, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
Sometimes I think the "heavier is better" idea is simply not true. Is there any data that has shown a heavier wt. oil doing a better job protecting? If engines are becoming more efficient and more tightly built, a heavier oil might actually be bad for it and if Mobil has always been close to a 20wt., I'm not too concerned.
[ March 10, 2003, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
Ok, maybe I'm missing something. But if Ford requires their spec oil, whether Motorcraft or others that meet's their warranty requirements why are people getting bothered and upset about using them during the warranty period. If you want to argue with Ford about using another spec. oil during the warranty period go ahead, but if they void your warranty you can only blame yourself. What you do after your warranty period is up to you. At this point in time the Ford Motorcraft 5W-20 oil has been good, according to UOA, and I see no reason to change oil brandor grade until my warranty is up, then I'll decide what oil is best suited to my needs. I agree that this oil grade is not for everybody.
Whimsey
Whimsey
Like I said, I really don't think heavier meens better so your fine....I'd run the 20wt. for warranty purposes although Patman made a good point that M1 is practically a 20wt. so you could definitely run that or there new 0w-20.
[ March 10, 2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
[ March 10, 2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
mikemc,
you made a good point. The viscosity difference between oil in a cold and hot engine is greater than the viscosity difference between a 20 weight and a 30 weight, so if driving in a cold climate does not ruin your engine, then how can 5w-30 ruin your engine? At 5* you'll drive 10 miles (15-20 minutes) before reaching operating temp.
you made a good point. The viscosity difference between oil in a cold and hot engine is greater than the viscosity difference between a 20 weight and a 30 weight, so if driving in a cold climate does not ruin your engine, then how can 5w-30 ruin your engine? At 5* you'll drive 10 miles (15-20 minutes) before reaching operating temp.
"So far, I cannot find a true dino 5W-20 (Group II+) - only "synth blends" or Group IIIs and upcoming PAOs/Group IVs."
Most bottles of 5w 20 do not mention synthetic blend at all except Motorcraft. How can one determine from the product data sheet, MSDS or any other source available to a regular customer that Havoline, Pennzoil, Chevron, Castrol or any brand is indeed a synthetic blend.
Most bottles of 5w 20 do not mention synthetic blend at all except Motorcraft. How can one determine from the product data sheet, MSDS or any other source available to a regular customer that Havoline, Pennzoil, Chevron, Castrol or any brand is indeed a synthetic blend.
We are about to start a test using Redline 5w-20 for anyone that cares. The tech specs on the oil are incredible it bench tests better than most 30w oils out there, so I have to find out if its really that good. I'll update in coming months in UOA posts for all to see.
Terry
Terry
Ford went to 5w20 for CAFE reasons only. No documented engine changes in vehicles that used 5w30 before the change. In fact, Ford also recommends 5w20 in many vehicles that called for 5w30 previously.
They are trying to beat this into peoples heads because so many folks get the "thats too thin for my car" mentality, so the EPA is requiring Ford to prove that people are actually using the stuff in order to get its credits.
As to synthetic blend issue, that is only true if you count Group III base oils as synthetic. A good example is Motorcraft 5w-20. Its labeled as a synthetic blend. The same oil in Conoco bottle is not labled synthetic or synthetic blend anywhere.
They are trying to beat this into peoples heads because so many folks get the "thats too thin for my car" mentality, so the EPA is requiring Ford to prove that people are actually using the stuff in order to get its credits.
As to synthetic blend issue, that is only true if you count Group III base oils as synthetic. A good example is Motorcraft 5w-20. Its labeled as a synthetic blend. The same oil in Conoco bottle is not labled synthetic or synthetic blend anywhere.
I don't own a car that requires 5W-20 but I see two potential issues that maybe you are missing:
(1) Many new vehicle owners intend to keep their cars long past the warranty period. Ford is only on the hook until the warranty expires. If an engine running on 5W-20 develops problems caused by that grade of oil, and repairs are required, who is going to pay to fix the engine? The vehicle owner, of course. I think most owners with long term ownership goals are more interested in engine protection than a little extra fuel mileage.
(2) So far 5W-20 is an unproven product over the long term. Yeah, the specs look good. Yeah, a few UOA's look good. But until millions of engines with 100's of millions of miles are racked up, no one really knows for sure how much protection 5W-20 really provides. It's a gamble to a certain extent and many vehicle owners are not comfortable taking that chance.
One final comment: Even if a Ford owner uses a viscosity other than 5W-20, Ford will still likely cover warranty claims if the owner can prove oil changes were done regularly. This threat of Ford voiding warranties unless 5W-20 only is used can be overruled in court, IMO. People purchase and use non-OEM parts every day. That fact does not absolve Ford or any other automaker from warranty coverage. To legally deny a claim it will incumbent on Ford to prove neglect *and* prove that the oil was the cause of the failure. There are plenty of consumer protection laws that Ford will have to overcome if they are a defendant in a court case regarding 5W-20 and engine failures. Read about the Magnusson-Moss Act and "assurances of merchantability".
Terry i'm looking at the specs. What part is 'incredible'?? tks...s
Patman
Staff member
For one, having a 3.3 HTHS! That's better than Mobil 1 10w30! Redline's 5w20 looks to be better than most 5w30s and 10w30s out there.
well spotted. Looks interesting for sure. A lot of Redline related posts on here lately, they seem to be grabbing more 'mindshare'.
Patman
Staff member
They are always on my mind, thanks to that free t-shirt they sent me last year, which I wear around the house all the time!
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