CAFE conspiracy nonsense disproved (RIP)

[gfh77665]

I have said before:

5w20 for Northern tier of US and Canada

5w30 for central USA, coast to coast

10w-30 For sunbelt states, TX, FL, AZ. etc.

Its not too hard of a concept to think ones way through this.

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: Eddie
My 2014 MAZDA CX5 manual states the only oil recommended in the US & CAN is 0w20 BUT, 5w30 in southern countries. Ed


Same engine as the CX9 (minus the turbo) and that engine specifies 5w30....

 

[HouseTiger]

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
I have said before:

5w20 for Northern tier of US and Canada

5w30 for central USA, coast to coast

10w-30 For sunbelt states, TX, FL, AZ. etc.

Its not too hard of a concept to think ones way through this.



Yeah, after the warranty period, we switched up to 5w30 and it's run like a champ, and no real difference in fuel mileage.

 

[DeepFriar]

Question: Would there be 0-20 recommendations if there was no CAFE?
Answer: No

That's not a conspiracy, that's just responding to the regulatory environment in which the OEM's operate.

Use of the word "conspiracy" here is disinginous on multiple levels. It is sensationalist on purpose of course but its use is also meant to snidely link to contemporary progressive doggerel such as trying to equate reasoned scientific skepticism with "climate change deniers" in order to shout them into silence. Note for the weaker minded: nobody denies that climate changes.

There are many these days with college degrees. Relatively few are engineering degrees (I don't have one). And it seems that those who would use snark and snide to shout people down don't have one either but got at least a minor in rhetoric and/or social studies. With Summer School in groupthink and slogans.

Let's try to keep the verbal games and drama to a minimum. If that sounds condescending in print, it isn't, it's just weariness with overblown, (under)overeducated bullies. Rant ends. Whew. Back to chasing kids out of the rose garden for me.....

 

[Gokhan]

What is all forgotten in this thread is that a conventional 5w30 shears to same viscosity as a 0W-20 after less than 1,000 miles.

Conventional 5w30 is also part of the big government CAFE conspiracy then.

 

[Rolla07]

I love hearing both sides argue when the fact is, people using 0w20 have not had any issues. I've used all types of oil and there is barely any diff in 0w20 vs 5w30. Anyone saying to use thick or thin can make an argument, both sides lack data to prove any valid point.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
What is all forgotten in this thread is that a conventional 5w30 shears to same viscosity as a 0W-20 after less than 1,000 miles.

Conventional 5w30 is also part of the big government CAFE conspiracy then.


Show me...asides from it not being on your own topic, it being a strawman...show it as a generally accepted fact.

You are entitled to your own opinions, and beliefs...but not facts.

So show us...5W30 shearing to 20 range in 1,000 miles...every time....

Still doesn't make it relevant to the topic title, nor your opening claims...but fact up.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Rolla07
I love hearing both sides argue when the fact is, people using 0w20 have not had any issues. I've used all types of oil and there is barely any diff in 0w20 vs 5w30. Anyone saying to use thick or thin can make an argument, both sides lack data to prove any valid point.


don't consider this as a thick/thin thread, consider it solely in the terms of reference that Gokhan stated it in.

He's clearly wrong, but would love it to become a thick/thin thread to have the thread spin away from his statements...thus his last strawman about 5W30s shearing.

 

[53' Stude]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
I love hearing both sides argue when the fact is, people using 0w20 have not had any issues. I've used all types of oil and there is barely any diff in 0w20 vs 5w30. Anyone saying to use thick or thin can make an argument, both sides lack data to prove any valid point.


don't consider this as a thick/thin thread, consider it solely in the terms of reference that Gokhan stated it in.

He's clearly wrong, but would love it to become a thick/thin thread to have the thread spin away from his statements...thus his last strawman about 5W30s shearing.


He wouldn't even have a argument about 10w30 vs 0w20 either

Glad we have folks like Shannow, SR5 and others that have facts and not "love affair" with thin oils

 

[turboseize]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
What is all forgotten in this thread is that a conventional 5w30 shears to same viscosity as a 0W-20 after less than 1,000 miles.

Conventional 5w30 is also part of the big government CAFE conspiracy then.


Show me just a single 5w30 with MB 229.5 approval that does.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: turboseize
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
What is all forgotten in this thread is that a conventional 5w30 shears to same viscosity as a 0W-20 after less than 1,000 miles.

Conventional 5w30 is also part of the big government CAFE conspiracy then.

Show me just a single 5w30 with MB 229.5 approval that does.

Show me just a single conventional 5w30 with MB 229.5 approval.

 

[FlyPenFly]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
What is all forgotten in this thread is that a conventional 5w30 shears to same viscosity as a 0W-20 after less than 1,000 miles.

Conventional 5w30 is also part of the big government CAFE conspiracy then.


Show me...asides from it not being on your own topic, it being a strawman...show it as a generally accepted fact.

You are entitled to your own opinions, and beliefs...but not facts.

So show us...5W30 shearing to 20 range in 1,000 miles...every time....

Still doesn't make it relevant to the topic title, nor your opening claims...but fact up.


He can't because he just made it up. Just like the entire basis for this thread. It's basically now a religious belief not anchored in rationality but in ego and faith.

 

[turboseize]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: turboseize
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
What is all forgotten in this thread is that a conventional 5w30 shears to same viscosity as a 0W-20 after less than 1,000 miles.

Conventional 5w30 is also part of the big government CAFE conspiracy then.

Show me just a single 5w30 with MB 229.5 approval that does.

Show me just a single conventional 5w30 with MB 229.5 approval.


Most of them. There are some synthetics, but most aren't. Grp III and a nice add pack is enough to reach 229.5...

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: car51
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
I love hearing both sides argue when the fact is, people using 0w20 have not had any issues. I've used all types of oil and there is barely any diff in 0w20 vs 5w30. Anyone saying to use thick or thin can make an argument, both sides lack data to prove any valid point.


don't consider this as a thick/thin thread, consider it solely in the terms of reference that Gokhan stated it in.

He's clearly wrong, but would love it to become a thick/thin thread to have the thread spin away from his statements...thus his last strawman about 5W30s shearing.


He wouldn't even have a argument about 10w30 vs 0w20 either

Glad we have folks like Shannow, SR5 and others that have facts and not "love affair" with thin oils


And what FACTS would that be?

 

[Shannow]

You can read the thread...

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
What is all forgotten in this thread is that a conventional 5w30 shears to same viscosity as a 0W-20 after less than 1,000 miles.


If you are comparing a synthetic 0W20 to a conventional 5W30, then that is hardly a level playing field.

Also you make it sound like 5W30 always shears and that 0W20 never shears, of which I am not convinced.

But if you want a 5W30 and shearing may be a problem to you, then just make sure you select the correct 5W30 such as Castrol Magnatec 5W30 (was semi-synthetic but now full synthetic). There are ample used oil analysis posted here that show the Magnatec 5W30 is still in grade and holding viscosity well after 9,000 miles in Turbo engines.

Also if you want a 30 grade oil, and it never gets colder than 0 F (about -20 C) where you live, then just run a 10W30 for more shear stability and lower Noack volatility. Mobil 1 10W30 is a nice looking drop for this application, but even a conventional 10W30 should perform well.

But let's take a wider field of view and look for exceptions, as they can be quite interesting. I know in North America you can get almost any oil you want (except Penrite). But in Australia there are certain grades of oil they do not sell. Sure I can get a full GTL based Shell Helix Ultra 0W20 synthetic and GTX 20W50 conventional and Castrol Edge 5W30 A3/B4 which is BMW LL-01 & MB 229.5 approved, plus ample Valvoline SynPower of various weights and specs. So yes I have a good selection of good oils.

But, as far as I know, I have No Conventional 5W30 (ample good 5W30 as semi-synthetic or full synthetic). Also No Conventional 10W40 (ample good conventional 15W40, semi-synthetic or full synthetic 10W40, full synthetic 5W40 & 0W40).

What this tells me is that I should avoid conventional 5W30 and conventional 10W40, as these oils are being pushed too hard to meet modern API SN spec, and they are borderline oils. However if I want a conventional 30 or 40 grade oil, then I can easily buy numerous 10W30 or 15W40 mineral oils. Beyond that (lower W spec) you are in semi-synthetic or full synthetic territory.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: turboseize
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: turboseize
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
What is all forgotten in this thread is that a conventional 5w30 shears to same viscosity as a 0W-20 after less than 1,000 miles.

Conventional 5w30 is also part of the big government CAFE conspiracy then.

Show me just a single 5w30 with MB 229.5 approval that does.

Show me just a single conventional 5w30 with MB 229.5 approval.

Most of them. There are some synthetics, but most aren't. Grp III and a nice add pack is enough to reach 229.5...

Conventional oil means an oil made of Group II+ or lower. Group III or higher is synthetic.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: SR5
If you are comparing a synthetic 0W20 to a conventional 5W30, then that is hardly a level playing field.

Also you make it sound like 5W30 always shears and that 0W20 never shears, of which I am not convinced.


SR5, it's part of an old meme that 20s "never shear out of grade" while 5W30 "always did".

The 20 part of the meme was due to the old J300 allowing a 20 to run all the way down to 5.6cst and be "in grade", because the grade bounds (5.6 to 9.3) were ridiculously wide...this was subsequently fixed, and 6.9 is the bottom stop.

And there are certainly 20s the don't stay in grade...which has been willfully overlooked by the proponents.

But yes, to say 30s become 20s thus validating 20s and ignoring the behaviour of the 20s is disingenuous.

 

[SilverFusion2010]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Question: Would there be 0-20 recommendations if there was no CAFE?
Answer: No

That's not a conspiracy, that's just responding to the regulatory environment in which the OEM's operate.

Use of the word "conspiracy" here is disinginous on multiple levels. It is sensationalist on purpose of course but its use is also meant to snidely link to contemporary progressive doggerel such as trying to equate reasoned scientific skepticism with "climate change deniers" in order to shout them into silence. Note for the weaker minded: nobody denies that climate changes.

There are many these days with college degrees. Relatively few are engineering degrees (I don't have one). And it seems that those who would use snark and snide to shout people down don't have one either but got at least a minor in rhetoric and/or social studies. With Summer School in groupthink and slogans.

Let's try to keep the verbal games and drama to a minimum. If that sounds condescending in print, it isn't, it's just weariness with overblown, (under)overeducated bullies. Rant ends. Whew. Back to chasing kids out of the rose garden for me.....



+10 for appropriate use of "doggerel"

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Conventional oil means an oil made of Group II+ or lower. Group III or higher is synthetic.

Hi Gokhan, I agree with your definition of synthetic, it's what I use and it includes GTL Group 3+ as a synthetic. However I know some people prefer to reserve the term synthetic for only Group 4 and Group 5 oil, and I'm OK with that completely. If there is any confusion in a technical discussion then we can just use Group numbers to clear up any confusion. I also have no overwhelming desire to always be correct and have the final say in any definition, it's just a word refering to chemistry, no confusion and I have no problem.

Yes I think we have already established the a conventional (Group 2) 5W30 is not the best oil in the world. Fine, we both agree on that. However I still can't see the jump to that fact that I now need to use a 0W20 or that there is a CAFE conspiracy.

My take home is avoid conventional 5W30 and instead run a synthetic 5W30 or a conventional 10W30. If you want to run a 0W20 sure, fill 'ya boots, I have no problem with that.

BTW if I wanted to use a 20 grade synthetic, and I didn't need the extreme cold starting ability it offered, then I would probably buy the same brand / formulated 5W20 (if possible) as it should have lower Noack volatility and better shear stability.