CAFE conspiracy nonsense disproved (RIP)

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Try this one from your Turkish manuals, you want to cherry pick then here you go. We can do this all day and it proves nothing either way so give it a rest already.
You tried to prove xw20 was better than xw40.

You want to run xw20w then have at it but stop trying to prove something that is only true in your mind.










Dittos. I keep wondering why he worries about what other posters pour into their crankcases? BTW, Is he a Toyota salesman?

I mentioned in a previous thread that if he participated in a blind test study of different weights of oil, he would not be able to tell the difference. Also, if 0w-20 makes driving fun again, why not run 0w-16 or 12 weight? Those should be even more excitement as according to him, more of something ( or less in this case) is better.

 

[OLEJOE]

Loc: Los Angeles, California

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
because of limited availability of newer API categories and thinner viscosity

And that's the falsehood, that you are the only people on earth that have access to newer and thinner oils.


That's the rubbish argument that was initially espoused by CATERHAM, and adopted mindlessly by his followers.

As I pointed out probably a decade ago, Toyota import cars to Australia...whole cars.

One would therefore assume that they were also capable of importing the magic elixer of life, even filling the trunk full of boxes of TGMO so that it bypassed the wagon train to the dealership.

Here's what the CAFE documents say...

https://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rulemaking/pdf/cafe/FRIA_2017-2025.pdf

Quote:
285 Low Friction Lubricants (LUB)
One of the most basic methods of reducing fuel consumption in gasoline engines is the use of lower viscosity engine lubricants. More advanced multi-viscosity engine oils are available today with improved performance in a wider temperature band and with better lubricating properties. This can be accomplished by changes to the oil base stock (e.g., switching engine lubricants from a Group I base oils to lower-friction, lower viscosity Group III synthetic) and through changes to lubricant additive packages (e.g., friction modifiers and viscosity improvers). The use of 5W-30 motor oil is now widespread and auto manufacturers are introducing the use of even lower viscosity oils, such as 5W-20 and 0W-20, to improve cold-flow properties and reduce cold start friction.

However, in some cases, changes to the crankshaft, rod and main bearings and changes to the mechanical tolerances of engine components may be required. In all cases, durability testing would be required to ensure that durability is not compromised. The shift to lower viscosity and lower friction lubricants will also improve the effectiveness of valvetrain technologies such as cylinder deactivation, which rely on a minimum oil temperature (viscosity) for operation.

Several manufacturers have previously commented confidentially, that low friction lubricants could have an effectiveness value between 0 to 1 percent. The agencies used the average effectiveness of 0.5 in the MYs 2012-2016 final rule. For purposes of this final rule, the agencies relied on the lumped parameter model and determined that the range for the effectiveness of low friction lubricant is 0.5 to 0.8 percent.

In the 2012-2016 rule, the 2010 TAR and the recent HD GHG rule, EPA and NHTSA used a direct manufacturing cost (DMC) of $3 (2007$), and considered that cost to be independent of vehicle class since the engineering work required should apply to any engine size. The agencies continue to believe that this cost is appropriate and have updated it to $3 (2010$) for this analysis220. No learning is applied to this technology, so the DMC remains $3 year-over-year. The agencies have used a low complexity short-term ICM of 1.24 for this technology through 2018, and a long-term ICM of 1.19 thereafter.


As I've shown repeatedly, the CAFE documentation always shows low viscosity lubricants as the cheapest means of improving fuel economy performance.

(Note also that they aren't finding Gokhan's 8%...)

Note also the next section on reducing friction (low tension rings)...which also manufacturers aren't doing for long life sans oil consumption.

With regard lubricants, the CAFE documentation requires that the manufacturers if they choose to use low viscosity lubricants (yes, it's their choice, no-one mandates same) must use all reasonable endeavours to prevent the owners from "backsliding", which includes placing the required grade on the oil filler cap, and limiting the wording in the manuals.


For more reading....some of it delusional..
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2650306/1
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/674279/8
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4045174/3

 

[Shannow]

Here's the letter from the EPA back in 2000 telling the OEMs what "anti backsliding" measures that they have to adopt if they are going to certify FUEL ECONOMY STANDARDS with these newer low viscosity oils...

https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=14177&flag=1

All these people claiming that CAFE has nothing to do with this trend are truly delusional.



The rest of the world has hopped on the GHG bandwagon, and thus the trends elsewhere are catching up...it's not becuase the bullock trains can't haul 0W20 up the mountains, and it's certainly not one of the most ridiculous statements that I've read on the internet that the oil manufacturers have to dump their heavy basestocks somewhere.

 

[B320i]

Something was said to the effect that a 20w50 recommendation was reserved for developing countries.

Now, I don't know what it is you people in the US of A consider as "developing," but we sure ain't it. Just because we have 25w-70 (heck, even 30-70) oil and you don't, that is no excuse to make such a ridiculous accusation!

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
All these people claiming that CAFE has nothing to do with this trend are truly delusional.

It is completely beyond me why some folks seem to be in denial that government workers make rules that must be obeyed under penalty of law. As government is currently constituted, that is their job. They are called "regulators" for a reason.

Your entire car is designed to be compliant with CAFE regs, EPA regs, and NHTSA regs enacted by regulators, even if that same car may be sold outside the US market.

 

[wemay]

Please stop telling me why thick oil is better.
Please stop telling me why thin oil is better.

Cars all over the world are lasting longer, way longer than 90% of their owners wish to keep them.

 

[spasm3]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


Note also the next section on reducing friction (low tension rings)...which also manufacturers aren't doing for long life sans oil consumption.





Saturn did low tension rings, and almost every s-series over 50k used oil.

 

[fdcg27]

This single statement which you quote from a Toyota OM invalidates your thread title entirely:

"The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the oil viscosity when the oil is at its operating temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions."

If a twenty is all the engine needs, then why does Toyota seem to think that it may need something more?
Also, these high speed and heavy load conditions are undefined.
Is running in the young eighties four up with gear in the trunk and AC cranked such a condition?
Maybe so and so maybe a lot of these owners would be better off running a 10W-30 at least during the summer.

 

[Silk]

I noticed no difference in fuel econommy with 5W-30, but recently saw my lowest average fuel cunsumption (7.1 L/100km) with a blend using 20W-50 as a base. If I was concerned about fuel consumption I would get a smaller car, not use thinner oils.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Try this one from your Turkish manuals, you want to cherry pick then here you go. We can do this all day and it proves nothing either way so give it a rest already.
You tried to prove xw20 was better than xw40.

You want to run xw20w then have at it but stop trying to prove something that is only true in your mind.



I can post the picture from my original USA 1985 Corolla manual, which is very similar.

How about this? It claims not only 5W-30 but also 5W-40 is too thin; however, 10W-30 is thick enough.

You can find obsolete oil-recommendation charts like these but you missed the main point of this thread. Toyota doesn't really recommend different viscosity based on the location. If you found the version of chart that you posted from the USA manual, it would probably be identical.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
This single statement which you quote from a Toyota OM invalidates your thread title entirely:

"The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the oil viscosity when the oil is at its operating temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions."

If a twenty is all the engine needs, then why does Toyota seem to think that it may need something more?
Also, these high speed and heavy load conditions are undefined.
Is running in the young eighties four up with gear in the trunk and AC cranked such a condition?
Maybe so and so maybe a lot of these owners would be better off running a 10W-30 at least during the summer.





Exactly. A good example is the Toyota Tacoma. Is 0w-20 oil the best option if you are constantly hauling loads, towing, or using 4WD often? I would venture to say no and personally would run a thicker grade if that was my truck. Toyota has left that option open.

The right oil for the right circumstances.

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
because of limited availability of newer API categories and thinner viscosity

And that's the falsehood, that you are the only people on earth that have access to newer and thinner oils.


That's the rubbish argument that was initially espoused by CATERHAM, and adopted mindlessly by his followers.

As I pointed out probably a decade ago, Toyota import cars to Australia...whole cars.

One would therefore assume that they were also capable of importing the magic elixer of life, even filling the trunk full of boxes of TGMO so that it bypassed the wagon train to the dealership.

Here's what the CAFE documents say...

https://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rulemaking/pdf/cafe/FRIA_2017-2025.pdf

Quote:
285 Low Friction Lubricants (LUB)
One of the most basic methods of reducing fuel consumption in gasoline engines is the use of lower viscosity engine lubricants. More advanced multi-viscosity engine oils are available today with improved performance in a wider temperature band and with better lubricating properties. This can be accomplished by changes to the oil base stock (e.g., switching engine lubricants from a Group I base oils to lower-friction, lower viscosity Group III synthetic) and through changes to lubricant additive packages (e.g., friction modifiers and viscosity improvers). The use of 5W-30 motor oil is now widespread and auto manufacturers are introducing the use of even lower viscosity oils, such as 5W-20 and 0W-20, to improve cold-flow properties and reduce cold start friction.

However, in some cases, changes to the crankshaft, rod and main bearings and changes to the mechanical tolerances of engine components may be required. In all cases, durability testing would be required to ensure that durability is not compromised. The shift to lower viscosity and lower friction lubricants will also improve the effectiveness of valvetrain technologies such as cylinder deactivation, which rely on a minimum oil temperature (viscosity) for operation.

Several manufacturers have previously commented confidentially, that low friction lubricants could have an effectiveness value between 0 to 1 percent. The agencies used the average effectiveness of 0.5 in the MYs 2012-2016 final rule. For purposes of this final rule, the agencies relied on the lumped parameter model and determined that the range for the effectiveness of low friction lubricant is 0.5 to 0.8 percent.

In the 2012-2016 rule, the 2010 TAR and the recent HD GHG rule, EPA and NHTSA used a direct manufacturing cost (DMC) of $3 (2007$), and considered that cost to be independent of vehicle class since the engineering work required should apply to any engine size. The agencies continue to believe that this cost is appropriate and have updated it to $3 (2010$) for this analysis220. No learning is applied to this technology, so the DMC remains $3 year-over-year. The agencies have used a low complexity short-term ICM of 1.24 for this technology through 2018, and a long-term ICM of 1.19 thereafter.


As I've shown repeatedly, the CAFE documentation always shows low viscosity lubricants as the cheapest means of improving fuel economy performance.

(Note also that they aren't finding Gokhan's 8%...)

Note also the next section on reducing friction (low tension rings)...which also manufacturers aren't doing for long life sans oil consumption.

With regard lubricants, the CAFE documentation requires that the manufacturers if they choose to use low viscosity lubricants (yes, it's their choice, no-one mandates same) must use all reasonable endeavours to prevent the owners from "backsliding", which includes placing the required grade on the oil filler cap, and limiting the wording in the manuals.


For more reading....some of it delusional..
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2650306/1
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/674279/8
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4045174/3


Thank you.

Your 2 posts in this thread have given more weight to the CAFE driven move to thinner oils than any several threads on the subject.

US vehicle manufacturers, if they desire to use a 20 grade oil for mpg numbers, MUST list that 20 grade oil as the only oil to use. Right there in a US Government regulatory document.

 

[dblshock]

"The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the oil viscosity when the oil is at its operating temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions."


...nothing like a smooth 5/40 hdeo for .25 cents a month in fuel.

 

[dblshock]

I think running 80mph qualifies as 'extreme load' especially in head winds, that's the part he don't get.

 

[tig1]

The reason I use 0-20 is because it performs and protects my engines so well.

 

[PimTac]

"Your 2 posts in this thread have given more weight to the CAFE driven move to thinner oils than any several threads on the subject. "

"US vehicle manufacturers, if they desire to use a 20 grade oil for mpg numbers, MUST list that 20 grade oil as the only oil to use. Right there in a US Government regulatory document."





I highly agree Shannow provided precise sources that made his point instead of speculation. Very informative as well.

 

[spasm3]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan


How about this? It claims not only 5W-30 but also 5W-40 is too thin; however, 10W-30 is thick enough.

Probably more about shearing down, than out of the bottle viscosity. That was back when oils sheared more than they do now , and 10w 30 adn 20w50 was probably more shear resistant that the other grads , probably during he SF era.

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: tig1
The reason I use 0-20 is because it performs and protects my engines so well.


No doubt, and you've been doing it for many years.

Where and how do you drive?

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
let's pick a country that is both in Europe and Middle East -- Turkey.


Does that mean its a GLOBAL conspiracy?