CAFE conspiracy nonsense disproved (RIP)
- Thread starter Gokhan
- Start date
- Status
Go back and try this experiment on say a 2012 model year vehicle... Of course by now the MFG processes have caught up with the oils in use. The current engines have bearing clearances close enough to live with that oil just fine.
Try 0W-20 in a 1980's Chevy truck in the heat of summer and I'll pick you up along side the road ...
Try 0W-20 in a 1980's Chevy truck in the heat of summer and I'll pick you up along side the road ...
Gokhan, take a closer look at these manual pages you've pulled, even the ones that list a variety of grades. Going back over 30 years, most manuals I've read have always talked about a fuel economy benefit being provided by a thinner oil. Not one of them said anything about a thinner oil being better at wear protection. General Motors has been doing that since the introduction of what were called Energy Conserving oils back in those days, and earlier, in fact.
Now, of course, there's no conspiracy, but that takes away from your sensational topic title. CAFE regulations are very clear on what is required in manual wording in the United States and on fill caps. There are no charts allowing 20w-50 all the way down to 0w-20, if you want to claim the fuel economy figures as tested with a 0w-20. That's not a conspiracy. nor is it disproved. That's documented, verifiable policy.
Now, of course, there's no conspiracy, but that takes away from your sensational topic title. CAFE regulations are very clear on what is required in manual wording in the United States and on fill caps. There are no charts allowing 20w-50 all the way down to 0w-20, if you want to claim the fuel economy figures as tested with a 0w-20. That's not a conspiracy. nor is it disproved. That's documented, verifiable policy.
I beg to disagree : 2017 Hyundai in my signature has 5W20 stamped on the oil cap (USA) but every other country using the same engine requires 5W30 and Oz indicates 5W40 ! Lastly there is fair to moderate fuel dilution with GDI engines . USA manual states 5W20 , 5W30 or 10W30 can be used just fine with no nonsense to go back to 5W20 ASAP . For my money in a GDI engine a low calcium 10W30 syn with low NOACK and least VII's is the ticket = Mobil 1 10W30 .
This is going to be interesting
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Go back and try this experiment on say a 2012 model year vehicle... Of course by now the MFG processes have caught up with the oils in use. The current engines have bearing clearances close enough to live with that oil just fine.
Try 0W-20 in a 1980's Chevy truck in the heat of summer and I'll pick you up along side the road ...
+1
Maybe i should try one of those 0W-16 oils in my car this summer... I think however that my oil pressure gauge would not move much from the bottom
Go back and try this experiment on say a 2012 model year vehicle... Of course by now the MFG processes have caught up with the oils in use. The current engines have bearing clearances close enough to live with that oil just fine.
Try 0W-20 in a 1980's Chevy truck in the heat of summer and I'll pick you up along side the road ...
+1
Maybe i should try one of those 0W-16 oils in my car this summer... I think however that my oil pressure gauge would not move much from the bottom
Originally Posted By: PimTac
"Your 2 posts in this thread have given more weight to the CAFE driven move to thinner oils than any several threads on the subject. "
"US vehicle manufacturers, if they desire to use a 20 grade oil for mpg numbers, MUST list that 20 grade oil as the only oil to use. Right there in a US Government regulatory document."
I highly agree Shannow provided precise sources that made his point instead of speculation. Very informative as well.
He usually nails it.
"Your 2 posts in this thread have given more weight to the CAFE driven move to thinner oils than any several threads on the subject. "
"US vehicle manufacturers, if they desire to use a 20 grade oil for mpg numbers, MUST list that 20 grade oil as the only oil to use. Right there in a US Government regulatory document."
I highly agree Shannow provided precise sources that made his point instead of speculation. Very informative as well.
He usually nails it.
You know, when you own a car, I support your right to use whatever oil you want. It's your car after all, and as the opening pages from the Toyota manual show, almost any oil will work and I strongly suspect this applies to most cars.
I think it is of more interest to find the exception, any case where this idea of most viscosities work in most cars deviates.
Both the USA and Australia have the GM Cruze with a 1.4 L iTi Turbo engine (Petrol / Gas). This engine is known to work the oil hard. In the USA you are told to use a low HTHS Dexos1 oil, however GM Australia say to use a high HTHS Dexos2 oil in the exact same engine. I asked if a Dexos1 oil was acceptable, and I was told that it wasn't, it has to be a Dexos2 oil in that little 1.4 L Turbo engine. Also the 1.6 iTI turbo as well.
This is not for lack of Dexos1 oils in Australia, they are very easy to find, and they are what most GM petrol cars use. The GM diesels also use the Dexos2 of course.
I didn't explicitly ask about warranty, but I was clearly told Dexos1 was not approved. Sound to me like GM Australia will not cover you if you use too thin an oil in your Turbo Cruze.
Yes I know many people in the USA successfully use a Dexos1 oil in this engine. But I'm just saying that branches of GM themselves think it requires a thicker oil, and say so very clearly.
I think it is of more interest to find the exception, any case where this idea of most viscosities work in most cars deviates.
Both the USA and Australia have the GM Cruze with a 1.4 L iTi Turbo engine (Petrol / Gas). This engine is known to work the oil hard. In the USA you are told to use a low HTHS Dexos1 oil, however GM Australia say to use a high HTHS Dexos2 oil in the exact same engine. I asked if a Dexos1 oil was acceptable, and I was told that it wasn't, it has to be a Dexos2 oil in that little 1.4 L Turbo engine. Also the 1.6 iTI turbo as well.
This is not for lack of Dexos1 oils in Australia, they are very easy to find, and they are what most GM petrol cars use. The GM diesels also use the Dexos2 of course.
I didn't explicitly ask about warranty, but I was clearly told Dexos1 was not approved. Sound to me like GM Australia will not cover you if you use too thin an oil in your Turbo Cruze.
Yes I know many people in the USA successfully use a Dexos1 oil in this engine. But I'm just saying that branches of GM themselves think it requires a thicker oil, and say so very clearly.
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: tig1
The reason I use 0-20 is because it performs and protects my engines so well.
No doubt, and you've been doing it for many years.
Where and how do you drive?
My Focus is the grocery getter with 75% local and 25% Hwy. The Fusion is closer to 50-50. I may be the poster boy for 0-20 oil as I have used it most of the life of my engines. Late last year I replaced the valve cover gasket on the Fusion. If you would like pics of the cam area let me know.
Originally Posted By: tig1
The reason I use 0-20 is because it performs and protects my engines so well.
No doubt, and you've been doing it for many years.
My Focus is the grocery getter with 75% local and 25% Hwy. The Fusion is closer to 50-50. I may be the poster boy for 0-20 oil as I have used it most of the life of my engines. Late last year I replaced the valve cover gasket on the Fusion. If you would like pics of the cam area let me know.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: tig1
The reason I use 0-20 is because it performs and protects my engines so well.
No doubt, and you've been doing it for many years.
Where and how do you drive?
My Focus is the grocery getter with 75% local and 25% Hwy. The Fusion is closer to 50-50. I may be the poster boy for 0-20 oil as I have used it most of the life of my engines. Late last year I replaced the valve cover gasket on the Fusion. If you would like pics of the cam area let me know.
Thanks; I've seen the pictures you've posted and under the valve cover they are clean, clean, clean. I have no doubt that M1 will keep engine internals clean. You've posted numerous used oil analysis showing that the oil works well in your applications.
But to post a devil's advocate speculative question-
Rather than the 50/50 flatlands grocery getter lifestyle your vehicles have lead, say instead you lived at higher altitude and were working the engines harder. Maybe Wyoming, mountainous terrain with 80mph speed limit and 40°C/105°F in the summer(-30°C/-22°F winter). 99% highway at those speeds. Is it possible that a 30 grade oil might protect better? Until recently I lived in that area of the US and have just moved to the Cleveland area. From experience, engines do work MUCH harder, both at altitude and in the mountains.
I'm not really asking for an answer, just posing food for thought. This is why I've embarked on my own thin vs thick test.
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: tig1
The reason I use 0-20 is because it performs and protects my engines so well.
No doubt, and you've been doing it for many years.
My Focus is the grocery getter with 75% local and 25% Hwy. The Fusion is closer to 50-50. I may be the poster boy for 0-20 oil as I have used it most of the life of my engines. Late last year I replaced the valve cover gasket on the Fusion. If you would like pics of the cam area let me know.
Thanks; I've seen the pictures you've posted and under the valve cover they are clean, clean, clean. I have no doubt that M1 will keep engine internals clean. You've posted numerous used oil analysis showing that the oil works well in your applications.
But to post a devil's advocate speculative question-
Rather than the 50/50 flatlands grocery getter lifestyle your vehicles have lead, say instead you lived at higher altitude and were working the engines harder. Maybe Wyoming, mountainous terrain with 80mph speed limit and 40°C/105°F in the summer(-30°C/-22°F winter). 99% highway at those speeds. Is it possible that a 30 grade oil might protect better? Until recently I lived in that area of the US and have just moved to the Cleveland area. From experience, engines do work MUCH harder, both at altitude and in the mountains.
I'm not really asking for an answer, just posing food for thought. This is why I've embarked on my own thin vs thick test.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
This single statement which you quote from a Toyota OM invalidates your thread title entirely:
"The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the oil viscosity when the oil is at its operating temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions."
If a twenty is all the engine needs, then why does Toyota seem to think that it may need something more?
Also, these high speed and heavy load conditions are undefined.
Is running in the young eighties four up with gear in the trunk and AC cranked such a condition?
Maybe so and so maybe a lot of these owners would be better off running a 10w30 at least during the summer.
Bingo.
This single statement which you quote from a Toyota OM invalidates your thread title entirely:
"The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the oil viscosity when the oil is at its operating temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions."
If a twenty is all the engine needs, then why does Toyota seem to think that it may need something more?
Also, these high speed and heavy load conditions are undefined.
Is running in the young eighties four up with gear in the trunk and AC cranked such a condition?
Maybe so and so maybe a lot of these owners would be better off running a 10w30 at least during the summer.
Bingo.
Originally Posted By: Kuato
US vehicle manufacturers, if they desire to use a 20 grade oil for mpg numbers, MUST list that 20 grade oil as the only oil to use. Right there in a US Government regulatory document.
Bingo again. Toyota isn't recommending 0W-20. The US government is forcing them to.
US vehicle manufacturers, if they desire to use a 20 grade oil for mpg numbers, MUST list that 20 grade oil as the only oil to use. Right there in a US Government regulatory document.
Bingo again. Toyota isn't recommending 0W-20. The US government is forcing them to.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: PimTac
"Your 2 posts in this thread have given more weight to the CAFE driven move to thinner oils than any several threads on the subject. "
"US vehicle manufacturers, if they desire to use a 20 grade oil for mpg numbers, MUST list that 20 grade oil as the only oil to use. Right there in a US Government regulatory document."
I highly agree Shannow provided precise sources that made his point instead of speculation. Very informative as well.
He usually nails it.
And without fail some doofus will continue to argue with him.
GO BITOG!!!!
Originally Posted By: PimTac
"Your 2 posts in this thread have given more weight to the CAFE driven move to thinner oils than any several threads on the subject. "
"US vehicle manufacturers, if they desire to use a 20 grade oil for mpg numbers, MUST list that 20 grade oil as the only oil to use. Right there in a US Government regulatory document."
I highly agree Shannow provided precise sources that made his point instead of speculation. Very informative as well.
He usually nails it.
And without fail some doofus will continue to argue with him.
GO BITOG!!!!
Originally Posted By: igs
Originally Posted By: Kuato
US vehicle manufacturers, if they desire to use a 20 grade oil for mpg numbers, MUST list that 20 grade oil as the only oil to use. Right there in a US Government regulatory document.
Bingo again. Toyota isn't recommending 0W-20. The US government is forcing them to.
But only IF they are using the 0w20 for their mpg numbers....which the US government is forcing them to meet.
Originally Posted By: Kuato
US vehicle manufacturers, if they desire to use a 20 grade oil for mpg numbers, MUST list that 20 grade oil as the only oil to use. Right there in a US Government regulatory document.
Bingo again. Toyota isn't recommending 0W-20. The US government is forcing them to.
But only IF they are using the 0w20 for their mpg numbers....which the US government is forcing them to meet.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
This single statement which you quote from a Toyota OM invalidates your thread title entirely:
"The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the oil viscosity when the oil is at its operating temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions."
If a twenty is all the engine needs, then why does Toyota seem to think that it may need something more?
Also, these high speed and heavy load conditions are undefined.
Is running in the young eighties four up with gear in the trunk and AC cranked such a condition?
Maybe so and so maybe a lot of these owners would be better off running a 10w30 at least during the summer.
This can't be quoted enough.
End thread.
This single statement which you quote from a Toyota OM invalidates your thread title entirely:
"The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the oil viscosity when the oil is at its operating temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions."
If a twenty is all the engine needs, then why does Toyota seem to think that it may need something more?
Also, these high speed and heavy load conditions are undefined.
Is running in the young eighties four up with gear in the trunk and AC cranked such a condition?
Maybe so and so maybe a lot of these owners would be better off running a 10w30 at least during the summer.
This can't be quoted enough.
End thread.
And many fleets that have a variety of vehicles will use the same oil in them all. Some of their vehicles call for 5w30, some for 5w20, and some for 0w20. Yet, they will all get the same 5w30 from the bulk oil in the shop. And I have never heard of a OEM denying warranties on fleets who do such things. And I have never seen any significant evidence that those fleets are experiencing any more problems than those who toe the line with the OEM viscosity recommendations. It all makes for interesting discussions, but not much else. Just one group trying to justify something that the other group is not doing.
My 2014 MAZDA CX5 manual states the only oil recommended in the US & CAN is 0w20 BUT, 5w30 in southern countries. Ed
4wd
$50 site donor 2026
SR5: That's a good point on the Cruze 1.4T ... think I'll put mine back on Mobil 1 10w30 HM after running both PUP & Mobil 1 Extended Performance in 5w
I'll be near 90k when due again ...
Thanks ...
I'll be near 90k when due again ...
Thanks ...
I'm claim no expertise on the subject, just 50 years of watching the evolution of lubricants, and marveling at the advances. My service guy that's been at our Ford dealer that services our vehicles (he's been there since just after the earth cooled) has a model identical to my wife's Ford 500, just a year newer. Has 3.0 liter engine. We ran the 5W-20 in it during the warranty period. Then he told me (several years back) that he's run 5w30 in his since day one and has more miles than ours and still runs tight and smooth. I guess it's preferences ?
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked