BlackStone - Oil Manufacturer Doesn't Matter - Discussion

[DGXR]

Like many people, I look for value. So I shop for high quality oil (that meets spec) at a low price. Mobil 1, PP/PUP, and other name brand synthetics are available for under $3 per quart, after rebate. It's been many years since I spent more than $14 for a 5-quart jug of synthetic. For example, SuperTech synthetic 5w30 has Dexos approval but it costs around $17. As long as rebates keep the name brand stuff super cheap, there is no reason to go with the store brand stuff.

It's possible that the name brands have superior seal conditioners, I don't know if that performance factor is included in the SN spec (or Dexos approval requirements). That is a good question. There may be many non-obvious benefits of using a name brand oil... superior detergent package, superior base oil, better HTHS, etc. I really don't know. But as long as the oil is changed regularly and the correct spec oil is used, it's hard to mess up something so simple.

I am not endorsing Dexos, I am simply using it as a minimum standard of product performance in an argument focusing on price and value.
(I don't know why I feel the need to add these disclaimer statements... must be all the hair-splitters in these forums looking for an angle to attack.)

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by demarpaint
I'll stir the pot with you. We're talking ppm as the saying goes. What I don't know is how many ppm of iron, aluminium, copper, etc.does it take to wear out an engine? Does anyone know? And to add more confusion, that number will vary by all the different engines.

I have never seen such a chart or definition before. When I ran oil samples in college for our fluid power and automotive engineering departments, anything like I've seen in this thread was in the noise. But if it spiked up to 1200 ppm Fe or 2400 or 6000 then there was a problem.

We did acid digestions on the samples too in order to capture large particles/pieces that wouldn't be detected by spectrographic analysis.When you compare the results before and after the digestion you get a relative idea of the amount of large stuff that might be breaking off parts.

Very interesting, thanks! I was just tossing that out there. I never saw it ever referenced that way, but clearly an engine can only shed so much metal before it is done. Creating such a chart would be nearly impossible, but an eye opener for sure, and put a lot of myths to rest once and for all regarding wear numbers.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by PimTac
I'm no mathematician but it seems to me that a 0.55ppm per thousand miles difference across all those oils is pretty much insignificant.


It is, hence the conclusion of the report.


Re 2.58 vs. 2.03 and the diff of 0.55

Not trying to stir the pot & just a math question:
0.55 ppm sound like a low number but it is ~%27.1 increase from 2.03

Does this fall under the case that I have $1 in savings and you have $2 (%100 more) but we are both poor

To me %27 increase is significant even though I never pay attention and/or care about these numbers ... at least not yet. I may need to spend a few more years on bitog for that

It all relative 27% difference is within noise in this example thus it is less than insignificant.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by kschachn
I have never seen such a chart or definition before. When I ran oil samples in college for our fluid power and automotive engineering departments, anything like I've seen in this thread was in the noise. But if it spiked up to 1200 ppm Fe or 2400 or 6000 then there was a problem.

6000 ppm Fe is roughly an ounce of iron. If that happened, you wouldn't be sampling for a UOA -- you would be calling for a tow truck.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by kschachn
I have never seen such a chart or definition before. When I ran oil samples in college for our fluid power and automotive engineering departments, anything like I've seen in this thread was in the noise. But if it spiked up to 1200 ppm Fe or 2400 or 6000 then there was a problem.

6000 ppm Fe is roughly an ounce of iron. If that happened, you wouldn't be sampling for a UOA -- you would be calling for a tow truck.



I concur with the math (roughly forma 6 qt sump)and the sentiment
Does anyone have a list of UOA providers who do particle count and gas chromatography for fuel?

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by Gokhan
6000 ppm Fe is roughly an ounce of iron. If that happened, you wouldn't be sampling for a UOA -- you would be calling for a tow truck.

They were fluid power installations not automobiles. They would suffer catastrophic failures and this was the measurement after acid digestion of the sample.

My point however, that your arguing that a several ppm difference for Castrol meaning they don't know what they are doing is silly.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by kschachn
My point however, that your arguing that a several ppm difference for Castrol meaning they don't know what they are doing

It's not just several ppm. It's three times the lead of other oils with German Castrol 0W-30.

In an engine that averaged 10 ppm lead with other oils, it could be 30 ppm with German Castrol. German Castrol has been know to produce higher lead numbers, just as Mobil 1 has been known to produce higher iron numbers.

Example:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2155921

Anyway, German Castrol 0W-30 A3/B4 has been discontinued; so, this is a moot discussion. It's now been replaced by Castrol 0W-30 C3/dexos2, which is also PAO-based (so, also German) but not available in US.

 

[PimTac]

As Perry Mason would say;

Objection. Conjecture.

 

[MrQuackers]

OT, oh well. Enjoy!

 

[Gokhan]

Cool, that's a heavy metal song we won't object. It reminded me that night I was in the casino of Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas with the Crazy Train put on the loudspeakers.

 

[OilUzer]

Originally Posted by DGXR

...
(I don't know why I feel the need to add these disclaimer statements... must be all the hair-splitters in these forums looking for an angle to attack.)


I nominate this for THE post of the century!

 

[StevieC]

So maybe an economy synthetic that meets proper weight and has the best cold weather performance available for those of us that need it?

 

[littleant]

Agree SubieRubyRoo. gross maintenance negligence; or, gross engineering negligence on the part of the engine manufacturer rank First & Second.

 

[Patman]

Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by kschachn
My point however, that your arguing that a several ppm difference for Castrol meaning they don't know what they are doing

It's not just several ppm. It's three times the lead of other oils with German Castrol 0W-30.

In an engine that averaged 10 ppm lead with other oils, it could be 30 ppm with German Castrol. German Castrol has been know to produce higher lead numbers, just as Mobil 1 has been known to produce higher iron numbers.

.


You aren't seriously using UOA values to determine an oil's performance are you? You've been here long enough to know that's not what UOAs are for.

And even if you want to use UOAs, you should remember that when GC 0w30 was all the rage here, it showed much lower wear numbers than other oils, including lead values.

I'm still laughing at your comment that they don't know what they are doing....

 

[StevieC]

I stumbled across this UOA today and thought I would add it to the discussion. Look at the comments from BlackStone.

 

[Cujet]

Sorry, but UOA "wear rates" are invalid. I put zero stock in PPM of various elements unless they are so far outside of the normal range, they then indicate a problem.

Folks, we regularly see spectacular UOA numbers on engines that are having mechanical problems.

It's just a tool and provides zero information on wear rates.

Particle counts are more valid. Even then, far from a perfect way to measure wear rates


Disassembly and assessment with a scanning electron microscope will provide accurate wear rates. That's how we did it at Mobil.

 

[StevieC]

What I was getting at is their comment about..."A lot of times, people read "Amsoil's claim that you can go 25,000 miles on a fill a d they slap it in and go for it" Meaning that even though they haven't stressed about an OCI or run a UOA the oil has survived and so has the engine it has been run in even if it's less than ideal for that engine setup / driving pattern as Blackstone alludes to which would be confirmed doing a UOA.