BIL's 2012 S550 Mercedes Repair Bill

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Not sure about current models, but some 20 years ago, BMW insisted on using the worst possible gasket material that just didn't last. Take it through a few heat cycles and it becomes brittle, crumbles to pieces, and all sorts of leaks commence. And the further south you live, the quicker they fail. For example, the windshield gasket only lasted 4 years in Florida.

There are many aspects for which I like German cars, but then there are others that just puzzle me.

That, and German cars like to run hot! Which is OK in EU climate, or German climate. Same goes the way BMW was making A/C. It is good for Hamburg, must be good for Montgomery, AL.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Not sure about current models, but some 20 years ago, BMW insisted on using the worst possible gasket material that just didn't last. Take it through a few heat cycles and it becomes brittle, crumbles to pieces, and all sorts of leaks commence. And the further south you live, the quicker they fail. For example, the windshield gasket only lasted 4 years in Florida.

There are many aspects for which I like German cars, but then there are others that just puzzle me.


That was butyl rubber, the same material your valve cover gasket was made from and will eventually succumb to the same fate. They also used rubber for the o-rings in the VANOS, whilst the M-cars got viton ones, that didn't get hard and stop sealing. So even when they know there is an issue, they still pick and choose

I never had the cooling system issues you did (M5 had a different setup) but both my breather vent hoses rotted off the car and I'm sure my EVAP hose was rotten too, hence the code I got for it.

My sister's throttle elbow rotted off, and her VCG, like my wife's, became rock hard and leaked. Ford has been using silicone for valve cover gasket material since the 1990's, so I'm not sure what BMW's excuse is. At well north of 300,000Km, our Expedition didn't leak a drop of oil.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
That was butyl rubber, the same material your valve cover gasket was made from and will eventually succumb to the same fate.

Yup. My original VCG started leaking at only 50K miles.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Not sure about current models, but some 20 years ago, BMW insisted on using the worst possible gasket material that just didn't last. Take it through a few heat cycles and it becomes brittle, crumbles to pieces, and all sorts of leaks commence. And the further south you live, the quicker they fail. For example, the windshield gasket only lasted 4 years in Florida.

There are many aspects for which I like German cars, but then there are others that just puzzle me.


That was butyl rubber, the same material your valve cover gasket was made from and will eventually succumb to the same fate. They also used rubber for the o-rings in the VANOS, whilst the M-cars got viton ones, that didn't get hard and stop sealing. So even when they know there is an issue, they still pick and choose

I never had the cooling system issues you did (M5 had a different setup) but both my breather vent hoses rotted off the car and I'm sure my EVAP hose was rotten too, hence the code I got for it.

My sister's throttle elbow rotted off, and her VCG, like my wife's, became rock hard and leaked. Ford has been using silicone for valve cover gasket material since the 1990's, so I'm not sure what BMW's excuse is. At well north of 300,000Km, our Expedition didn't leak a drop of oil.

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
That was butyl rubber, the same material your valve cover gasket was made from and will eventually succumb to the same fate.

Yup. My original VCG started leaking at only 50K miles.



Just tripped 50k miles. Fingers crossed. The OFHG still leaks on the N55 with some regularity but it seems that the VCG leak occurs towards the 100k mile mark rather than 50k miles..

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
No offense, but if someone pays big bucks for any car and then keeps paying more big bucks for basic services and for poor reliability, just because he/she can....
Is that wise?

A Silicon Valley exec (filthy rich) once told me his $100K Mercedes S500 was the worst car he ever owned.
He was known as a man of integrity in a cut-throat business.
I learned a lot from Dr. Hanley.
I think he was a double PHD; Math and Business. Dunno for sure.

Yes, it makes sense.

Why?

Because luxury cars DON'T make sense. They are emotional purchases that we make "because we want to". If you want to drive it, you will keep it driveable. Because you want to. And really, if you have the internet, you understand luxury, if only at the "entry" level by American standards.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Not sure about current models, but some 20 years ago, BMW insisted on using the worst possible gasket material that just didn't last. Take it through a few heat cycles and it becomes brittle, crumbles to pieces, and all sorts of leaks commence. And the further south you live, the quicker they fail. For example, the windshield gasket only lasted 4 years in Florida.

There are many aspects for which I like German cars, but then there are others that just puzzle me.


That was butyl rubber, the same material your valve cover gasket was made from and will eventually succumb to the same fate. They also used rubber for the o-rings in the VANOS, whilst the M-cars got viton ones, that didn't get hard and stop sealing. So even when they know there is an issue, they still pick and choose

I never had the cooling system issues you did (M5 had a different setup) but both my breather vent hoses rotted off the car and I'm sure my EVAP hose was rotten too, hence the code I got for it.

My sister's throttle elbow rotted off, and her VCG, like my wife's, became rock hard and leaked. Ford has been using silicone for valve cover gasket material since the 1990's, so I'm not sure what BMW's excuse is. At well north of 300,000Km, our Expedition didn't leak a drop of oil.

Viton is excellent. Now I'm curious what my Mazda used. I'm pretty sure my Jeep Grand Cherokee used recycled condoms, as my LCA bushings rotted out 4 years and 65K miles after it left the assembly plant (mind you, the OEM tires were still on it and holding air at this time...)

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Not sure about current models, but some 20 years ago, BMW insisted on using the worst possible gasket material that just didn't last. Take it through a few heat cycles and it becomes brittle, crumbles to pieces, and all sorts of leaks commence. And the further south you live, the quicker they fail. For example, the windshield gasket only lasted 4 years in Florida.

There are many aspects for which I like German cars, but then there are others that just puzzle me.


That was butyl rubber, the same material your valve cover gasket was made from and will eventually succumb to the same fate. They also used rubber for the o-rings in the VANOS, whilst the M-cars got viton ones, that didn't get hard and stop sealing. So even when they know there is an issue, they still pick and choose

I never had the cooling system issues you did (M5 had a different setup) but both my breather vent hoses rotted off the car and I'm sure my EVAP hose was rotten too, hence the code I got for it.

My sister's throttle elbow rotted off, and her VCG, like my wife's, became rock hard and leaked. Ford has been using silicone for valve cover gasket material since the 1990's, so I'm not sure what BMW's excuse is. At well north of 300,000Km, our Expedition didn't leak a drop of oil.


I know, that is strange and inexcusable when much better materials were available. I had a 525e with the eta engine and a 325i that both used a lot of fiber gaskets made by Elring as the OE supplier, they were tight as a drum, no Vanos. The eta engine was not popular so the dealer sold me the leftover year old car much cheaper, it was better than I thought it would be, lower HP but good torque and fuel economy.
The MB and VW cars didn't seem to have many issues with leaks

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Not sure about current models, but some 20 years ago, BMW insisted on using the worst possible gasket material that just didn't last. Take it through a few heat cycles and it becomes brittle, crumbles to pieces, and all sorts of leaks commence. And the further south you live, the quicker they fail. For example, the windshield gasket only lasted 4 years in Florida.

There are many aspects for which I like German cars, but then there are others that just puzzle me.


That was butyl rubber, the same material your valve cover gasket was made from and will eventually succumb to the same fate. They also used rubber for the o-rings in the VANOS, whilst the M-cars got viton ones, that didn't get hard and stop sealing. So even when they know there is an issue, they still pick and choose

I never had the cooling system issues you did (M5 had a different setup) but both my breather vent hoses rotted off the car and I'm sure my EVAP hose was rotten too, hence the code I got for it.

My sister's throttle elbow rotted off, and her VCG, like my wife's, became rock hard and leaked. Ford has been using silicone for valve cover gasket material since the 1990's, so I'm not sure what BMW's excuse is. At well north of 300,000Km, our Expedition didn't leak a drop of oil.

Viton is excellent. Now I'm curious what my Mazda used. I'm pretty sure my Jeep Grand Cherokee used recycled condoms, as my LCA bushings rotted out 4 years and 65K miles after it left the assembly plant (mind you, the OEM tires were still on it and holding air at this time...)


Oh, let's not start on suspension bushing material,

This is another component where you just swap out the entire control arm assembly when the bushings wear out. I know my sister's have been replaced at least once already. This is actually pretty common on German cars IIRC (and considering the JGC and certain Mercedes models share the platform, draw what you will from that) as suspension components are I believe considered "wear items" and have an anticipated lifespan. This is one of the areas where the SRT will likely fare better, as they use different, usually more robust, parts.

 

[Trav]

GM has some tricks of their own. One Opel I did needed a rear U joint, not big deal or so I thought. A two piece drive shaft with carrier bearing, they point welded (and not with plastic) the joint caps in and would only sell the entire drive shaft unit for 700 Euros, how nice is that? LOL
I drilled the weld points out and tapped it for a 3mm pointed grub screws and found a joint with the correct measurements, took me 3 hours for a 20 min job.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Trav
GM has some tricks of their own. One Opel I did needed a rear U joint, not big deal or so I thought. A two piece drive shaft with carrier bearing, they point welded (and not with plastic) the joint caps in and would only sell the entire drive shaft unit for 700 Euros, how nice is that? LOL
I drilled the weld points out and tapped it for a 3mm pointed grub screws and found a joint with the correct measurements, took me 3 hours for a 20 min job.


Sounds like the same issue I had with my M5. It needed a rear U-joint (actually a CV joint apparently) but it was not a serviceable item, BMW expected you to buy the several thousand dollar driveshaft assembly.

 

[MCompact]

When Ford was doing its usual incompetent job of promoting European Fords my wife and I bought a CPO Scorpio. If the guibo went south Ford USA expected you to buy a new driveshaft assembly. Ditto for the center bearing.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by MCompact
When Ford was doing its usual incompetent job of promoting European Fords my wife and I bought a CPO Scorpio. If the guibo went south Ford USA expected you to buy a new driveshaft assembly. Ditto for the center bearing.

Scorpio was absolute failure in Europe. It was abysmal vehicle.
However, their first and second generation Mondeo's proved pretty good.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Mondeo was sold in the US as Contour, wasnt it? Wife had one as an extended rental. It was decent.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Mondeo was sold in the US as Contour, wasnt it? Wife had one as an extended rental. It was decent.

Yes, first gen. Not sure was suspension set up same etc. They had pretty decent 1.8 turbo diesel engine. Later they got direct injected diesel that was good. Second generation was step forward in diesel technology for FORD in Europe.
I remember when I worked for a car magazine we were testing 2nd generation on Hwy in Bosnia. 2.2ltr 4 cyl, 185hp and some 380nm of torque. I was doing some 225-230km/h, and saw some car trying to catch up, but not standing a chance. At toll booth the car catches up and it was VW Golf GTI police interceptor. Guy comes out and says: it's ok, we see you guys testing car, but can you tell me what is under that hood? I am trying to catch up with you last 20km

 

[pandus13]

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Mondeo was sold in the US as Contour, wasnt it? Wife had one as an extended rental. It was decent.

...and Mercury Mystique (It come with leather seats).
2.5L gas engine.
Back to BITOG: tight spot to change the oil filter.
Scraped some fingers and learned some skills on it (verify oil, change oil, change brake pads + rotors,verify and change brake fluid, verify and change PS fluid, verify and add wipers fluid, change wipers, check tires pressure, wash car; yeah you can tell I loved that car)

 

[john_pifer]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Mondeo was sold in the US as Contour, wasnt it? Wife had one as an extended rental. It was decent.

Yes, first gen. Not sure was suspension set up same etc. They had pretty decent 1.8 turbo diesel engine. Later they got direct injected diesel that was good. Second generation was step forward in diesel technology for FORD in Europe.
I remember when I worked for a car magazine we were testing 2nd generation on Hwy in Bosnia. 2.2ltr 4 cyl, 185hp and some 380nm of torque. I was doing some 225-230km/h, and saw some car trying to catch up, but not standing a chance. At toll booth the car catches up and it was VW Golf GTI police interceptor. Guy comes out and says: it's ok, we see you guys testing car, but can you tell me what is under that hood? I am trying to catch up with you last 20km

Haha, cool story!

 

[Vikas]

Originally Posted by fdcg27
I don't know how much of a unicorn this particular failure was, but if it's a known problem then shame on Mercedes.
This wasn't some midline E class or cheapo C class, this was the premium S class, where this sort of failure simply shouldn't happen on a seven year old car with but 54K.
There was a time when the premium price of a Mercedes didn't buy you toys. You can get the same toys in any 20K Hyundai.
Rather, buyers paid a premium for a Mercedes because it really was very well engineered and manufactured. There were no cheap Chinese electronics. Something like a 123, 124 or 201 really would give 200K+ with nothing more than normal maintenance, brakes, tires and a battery. Even the old S-class cars were paragons of reliable performance. A 450 SL/SE/SEL would run forever and the later aluminum engines were also great once the original timing chain was replaced with a two-row unit.
Shame that Mercedes appears to be going backward with respect to durability while every mainstream maker has been moving forward.
Were I your BIL, I'd not be too impressed.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by john_pifer
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Mondeo was sold in the US as Contour, wasnt it? Wife had one as an extended rental. It was decent.

Yes, first gen. Not sure was suspension set up same etc. They had pretty decent 1.8 turbo diesel engine. Later they got direct injected diesel that was good. Second generation was step forward in diesel technology for FORD in Europe.
I remember when I worked for a car magazine we were testing 2nd generation on Hwy in Bosnia. 2.2ltr 4 cyl, 185hp and some 380nm of torque. I was doing some 225-230km/h, and saw some car trying to catch up, but not standing a chance. At toll booth the car catches up and it was VW Golf GTI police interceptor. Guy comes out and says: it's ok, we see you guys testing car, but can you tell me what is under that hood? I am trying to catch up with you last 20km

Haha, cool story!

Yeah, that GTI had more hp, but aerodynamics worked against it.

 

[Treadstone]

Guy at work bought a Phaeton with like 162k on the clock. The pile of repair receipts from the previous owner that came with the car totaled something like $26-30k.

He already had to have the engine wiring harness replaced due to misfire CELs. Apparently, not oil but coolant migrates in these harnesses.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Treadstone
Guy at work bought a Phaeton with like 162k on the clock. The pile of repair receipts from the previous owner that came with the car totaled something like $26-30k.

He already had to have the engine wiring harness replaced due to misfire CELs. Apparently, not oil but coolant migrates in these harnesses.

Phaeton was a darling project for Ferdinand Peich. He said: I want best luxury car to be developed. They literally could not care less about maintenance costs. That was not even an afterthought. Only reason why they developed it was to prove to Mercedes and BMW that VW can do it. When German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder decided for the first time in German automotive history to switch from MB S class to Phaeton, VW declared victory, and never made car again

They achieved their goal.