Beginning to have my doubts

[H2GURU]

People.
This thread has been superb as it appears to touch the very being of a BITOGER! So good it is almost worth re-reading. For my small needs here, I have learned that the Motocraft syn-blend cut an oil consumption problem in half(perhaps due to higher flash-point which helped oil last longer in the supercharged engine) So for me the happy medium is a QT. of SYNTHETIC thrown in with each change to get my own cost effective blend. I liked A- J-'s Thanksgiving- St Patty's day theory as this could save a few numb fingers for me. I can add an extra

 

[H2GURU]

Sorry. must have hit wrong key
I can add an extra QT. of syn in summer if needed to time maintenance on vehicles for the four day week-end, which would be great.

 

[99]

quote:

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Originally posted by TheTanSedan:


Besides, none of it matters at all if there is even a small leak in the air intake system. As of this post there are about 450 threads under Air Filter at BITOG, and over 11,000 on Engine Oil.

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Yep, I've wondered why so many people here are SO ANAL about their oil and oil filters, but don't even care about the other components on the car/truck. It's a total package people. Neglect the trans/trans axle, transfer case and axles and it won't matter what whiz-bang, super-cracked oil and space age oil filter you use because the vehicle will die of driveline failure long before the engine gives it up. This is the weak link amongst the oil geeks here...they really can't think outside of the engine.

 

[Gary Allan]

I'm jumping in late here ..so forgive me ..but I gotta question this here just a little.

quote:

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With coolant temps running 205-210F, and sump temps approximately 30-40F higher (or, 235-250F) per design, then the synthetic has the decided advantage of being able to deal with a failing cooling system. Number one neglected system on American cars is the cooling system. And they are prone to catastrophic failure. Engine oil provides most all the cooling of the bottom end, and overall is seen as dealing with as much as 40% of the engines heat rejection.

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This figure looks like it came from a NASCAR engine builder ..not from a passenger car manufacturer/engineer. I'd love to see the car that routinely sees 230-250F oil temps. It just ain't so ...at least for the VAST majority of the motoring public.

That 40% cooling figure is right out of a seminar that a buddy had at Indy on engine building. Their current theory (for a few years) is high volume/ (relatively) low pressure. They aren't passenger cars.

Now if you're asserting, from whatever source you're quoting, that "by design" implies "capable of sustained conditions" ..then that would infer something different...but there is no way that anyone here ..outside of some really spirited driving (on the track - maaaaaaaaaaybe on the highway or street racing) will see those temps under typical conditions.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Wear/miles/dollar has nothing to do with your mpg post, Robbie.

 

[greg_J35]

quote:

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Originally posted by greenfordtruck:

quote:

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Originally posted by Dagwood:
I have been reading and lurking around this site for some time. I was hoping to see some compelling evidence to suggest that synthetic oil will protect your engine better than conventional motor oil. I hate to admit this, but I think I am swinging the other way. I have been a devoted user of Mobil 1 for years, but now I have come to the conclusion that todays new conventional oils will offer excellent protection for those who stay within recommended OCI's. It would be interesting to see some comparisons of the same car/engine with synthetic versus dino oil. In the long run, I think that a good maintenance schedule is all that really matters. I have seen posts of cars going over 400,000 miles on just dino oil and consistent maintenance. I feel like a traitor...but I cannot dismiss the information I have soaked up here. Thanks everyone. This is a great site.

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You are not alone as I too have come to the conclusion that synthetic oil is a waste of money for my use. Over the years,I have witnessed my Dad's vehicles achieve 200,000 miles and still perform well with Motorcraft or Havoline oil and Motorcraft filters at 5000 mile intervals.These were all Ford V8 vehicles from 1969 thru 2000. I have used Mobil1 in my Ford Trucks and Honda Accord and were not impressed enough to justify the cost. I now use Motorcraft or Kendall GT1 (Connoco Phillips) and Motorcraft or Wix Filters in my vehicles with 5000 mile oci.

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I have read many posts on this topic and it all comes down to this; You do your thing and I'll do mine. I am thankful to be in the good ol' USA where we can each choose our own way.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by 99:
Yep, I've wondered why so many people here are SO ANAL about their oil and oil filters, but don't even care about the other components on the car/truck.

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"BITOG"

There is clue hidden in that acronym.

 

[AEHaas]

From Molakule's quoted study:
"The Oil Sump temperature is always 1.2 to 1.43 times higher than the coolant temp."

This is why people get misinformation. This bench study was done at WIDE OPEN THROTTLE, full power. We know that at the race track the coolant is at 220 - 230 F and we know the oil sump is as high as 300 F and higher. But nobody drives under this condition and then rarely at the track.

For off track conditions the coolant and sump temperatures are nearly the same.

My Ferrari and Lamborghini coolant and oil temperatures run around 180 - 185 both around town and at sustained 130 MPH speeds. Both conditions are actually low load for these cars.

aehaas

 

[vad]

This topic reminds me of a political discussion between the hardcore dems and reps.

1. No one changes his/her opinion on the subject.
2. Everyone has very strong feelings.
3. Everyone believes that the opposing side is uninformed or worse

.
4. The discussion lasts multiple pages.
5. There is usually no new info being presented.
6. People who claim to have doubts have already made their mind.

The only difference is that we don't go through the election cycle craziness, therefore our threads remain largely civilized.

 

[Dagwood]

Good Grief.

I did not intend to start a political debate.

I have been a staunch advocate of synthetic oil, but after reading hundreds of posts and looking a UOA's I have come to the conclusion that for the average driver, (myself included) conventional oils and regular intervals will be all that is necessary for a long lasting engine.

I think I might have wasted alot of money for my vehicles. I personally do not believe in long OCI's even with a good synthetic. I have always changed my oil (synthetic or conventional) every 5,000 miles.

That does not mean that I don't believe in the benefit of synthetic oil. I still use synthetic oil in my boats. I just don't own any high performance vehicles that warrant the expense. I have not seen any evidence or dramatic results to convince me to continue to use synthetics in my vehicles. That's all.

 

[vad]

See number 6.

 

[Dagwood]

"See number 6."

In my case:
1. False...I did change my opinion based on facts presented here.
2. No feelings involved.
3. Not taking sides.
4. Can't argue with that one.
5. I guess I was looking for new information or perhaps some solid evidence to convinve me that my conclusion was incorrect.
6. I think all of us are looking for insight. That is what makes the site a success. Perhaps I will use a snythetic blend now since it appears to offer an excellent middle ground. I don't think that we are all that stubborn. I can't speak for all, but the thirst for new knowledge is what keeps me visiting this site.

[ October 09, 2005, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[Gary Allan]

Dagwood ..let me ask you a side question here.. How many miles do you do a year on your 5k OCI application?? Is it a multiple of 5k (in the rough)??

Enhance your calm

 

[99]

quote:

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Originally posted by XS650:

quote:

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Originally posted by 99:
Yep, I've wondered why so many people here are SO ANAL about their oil and oil filters, but don't even care about the other components on the car/truck.

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"BITOG"

There is clue hidden in that acronym.

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And there's other automotive sub-forums here that deal with the other fluids that a car/truck cannot survive without. The traffic on them is a fraction of what it is on the oil and filter forums. The geeks tend to focus only on engine oil & filters like they are the only things that matter.

[ October 09, 2005, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: 99 ]

 

[99]

quote:

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Originally posted by AEHaas:
From Molakule's quoted study:
"The Oil Sump temperature is always 1.2 to 1.43 times higher than the coolant temp."

This is why people get misinformation. This bench study was done at WIDE OPEN THROTTLE, full power. We know that at the race track the coolant is at 220 - 230 F and we know the oil sump is as high as 300 F and higher. But nobody drives under this condition and then rarely at the track.

For off track conditions the coolant and sump temperatures are nearly the same.

My Ferrari and Lamborghini coolant and oil temperatures run around 180 - 185 both around town and at sustained 130 MPH speeds. Both conditions are actually low load for these cars.

aehaas

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That's fine, but what happens with your Autostrada rockets might not apply to another type of car or truck. My Jeep's coolant runs 210 with normal driving. That would mean the oil temp is, at a minimum, as hot as the coolant and no doubt higher under load in the middle of summer, when crawling around off-road with minimal airflow under the Jeep to help cool the pan off. No full throttle needed to spike oil temps in a Jeep application. So I wouldn't necessarily throw out the misinformation flag so quickly there Enzo.

 

[Dagwood]

"Dagwood ..let me ask you a side question here.. How many miles do you do a year on your 5k OCI application?? Is it a multiple of 5k (in the rough)??

Enhance your calm"

We own 3 vehicles:

2003 Toyota 4runner, 4.7, V8 - 15-20k miles/year
2001 Pathfinder, 3.5, 6cyl - 10-15k miles/year
1996 Toyota Rav4, 1.8, 4cyl - 5-10k miles/year

The Pathfinder and the Rav4 are around town and occasional highway, so they would be characterised as "severe duty". The 4runner sees 50 miles of highway driving on weekdays.

I could probably get away with 7,500 mile OCI's on the 4runner, but I do occassionally tow a boat with it (not often since it stays at the marina in the summer).

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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That would mean the oil temp is, at a minimum, as hot as the coolant and no doubt higher under load in the middle of summer, when crawling around off-road with minimal airflow under the Jeep to help cool the pan off. No full throttle needed to spike oil temps in a Jeep application. So I wouldn't necessarily throw out the misinformation flag so quickly there Enzo.

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I wouldn't be too sure unless you've actually measured the temps there 99. Crawling around ..it could be a mixed bag. Idling tends to not do squat to oil temp. You have less thermal input to the engine ..and I don't know how low load/high rpms work in that situation Now a hill climb ..slinging mud ..pushing 4 grand up a slope with big tires ...probably ..

If I've gauged the consensus of those who actually have measured their oil temps ..they tend to feel that +/- 20F of coolant is normal (IIRC) ..or approx 180-220F...

..but again ..this isn't something that happens to anywhere near a fraction of the motoring fleet. Without being qualified ..you could get the wrong impression.

 

[TheTanSedan]

MOTOR Magazine. An industry journal.
http://www.motor.com/
One of the larger providers of technical information to auto repair professionals.

The last three cars we've had run at temps of 205-220F, winter or summer resting on 210F indicated after warmup, under normal driving.

Here's a guy who actually bothered to measure the relation of oil temps versus coolant temps in his own vehicle; quite a well-done thread:

http://jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=477384&highlight=cooler

At 2200 rpm, his numbers show average coolant/oil temps at 205F/250F. The high is 210F/273F, or a difference of 1.2 and 1.3 respectively.

Here's a quote from the Perma-Cool catalog:
http://www.perma-cool.com/Catalog/Cat_page02.html

"The ideal operating range for engine oil is 180°F through 200°F. While operating within this range, the oil works as a lubricant, coolant, and cleansing agent in the engine. Modern engines generally run with radiator coolant temperatures between 200°F and 220°F with oil temperature ranges between 20°F and 75°F HOTTER. In other words, when the engine is performing flawlessly, the engine oil is already overheating! Oil that exceeds 220°F rapidly loses its ability to lubricate and cool causing accerlerated fatigue and premature component failure."

Both examples above show a range of from 1.1 to around 1.3.

I, too, have had oil temp gauges, and, no, I only hoped that they would react quickly. I never had proof that they did.

 

[fuel tanker man]

"You'd have been a lousy fighter pilot, FTM -- an Iraqi in a 30 year old MiG would bring you down from behind -- never seen and never considered, until, of course, his missile blew your tail off."

Cute ekpolk. Almost as cute as those little elves you so enjoy playing tailgunner with.

Dan

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by fuel tanker man:
"You'd have been a lousy fighter pilot, FTM -- an Iraqi in a 30 year old MiG would bring you down from behind -- never seen and never considered, until, of course, his missile blew your tail off."

Cute ekpolk. Almost as cute as those little elves you so enjoy playing tailgunner with.

Dan

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Shoot Dan, you're not keeping your GC faithful straight. Pscholte is the one who's hung up on the elf thing. I really don't care what color the stuff is -- green, purple, brown, whatever. I like the obvious good performance this stuff demonstrates. And I like knowing that I have the deepest of performance safety margins. Now, there are two things (other than elf worship...) to which I've never subscribed: 1) a belief that dinos are "bad" or "poor" oils. They're quite good, within their range of performance. And 2) the apparent need on the part of some to harpoon those who don't necessarily agree with my view of things. In all seriousness, though, your contributions to BITOG are valuable and respected, just remember that those who choose not to follow your path are not per se evil. . . And do be sure to "check six" from time to time -- you never know what might be creeping up unseen from behind.