Beginning to have my doubts

[fuel tanker man]

Some of us are continuing to assume that sythetic oils will allow for longer OCI's.

As more and more evidence comes in, that seems to be less and less the case.

The current UOA posted here using Havoline dino (5W30 I think) in a GM 5.3 looked really good at nearly 13,000 miles.

So the notion that syns allow for extended drains is being consistently called into question by real world evidence.

For -30 degree starts, yes, an oil with the best cold flow possible is in order--and that would be a synthetic. But the question would still remain as to how much real wear reduction would be realized in -30F start-ups using the 0W30 syn versus a 5W30--or even a 5W20--dino.

Dan

 

[pbm]

I agree with the jist that current dino oils make it hard to justify the added expense of synthetics
(except in cases of extreme low temps). This is especially true for folks like me who are leery of extending OCI's beyond 6K or so. Have we come to any conclusions on SM dino vs. SL dino (ie: Havoline) yet?

 

[AndyH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by fuel tanker man:
Some of us are continuing to assume that sythetic oils will allow for longer OCI's.

As more and more evidence comes in, that seems to be less and less the case.

The current UOA posted here using Havoline dino (5W30 I think) in a GM 5.3 looked really good at nearly 13,000 miles.

So the notion that syns allow for extended drains is being consistently called into question by real world evidence.

---

Well, unless that same guy was to run a synthetic in his Chevy truck and have UOA's performed on it there really is no telling how long a quality synthetic might have held up in his truck. 13,000 miles? 20,000 miles? 25,000 miles? Even longer?

 

[buster]

To me, a keeping the engine clean is more important then a few ppm of wear differences.

 

[Bill in Utah]

quote:

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Originally posted by buster:
To me, a keeping the engine clean is more important then a few ppm of wear differences.

---

And you can keep your engine very clean using Dino and changing it.

I just looked in the valve cover of my 2000 Chev V8 which gets luckly to go 2 miles before it's stopped. Then 1 hour later return to home.. (wife taking the kids to school or pick up...) and a VERY few longer trips here or there since the Gas price has went up.

We would agree it's not getting close to warming up.

I just changed the oil and while it was draining I looked in the fill spout which allows you to see the head and a rocker arm and it's spotless.

My oil change was (and has been with under $1 a quart oils) Pennzoil SL 5w-30 and a AC-delco PF59 filter. Total for the whole OCI is less than $10.

I'd bet down the road, it will stay as clean as if I was running Syn.

It's just todays dino oils are prob BETTER than yesterdays syns. And I've got quite a few hundred thousand miles on motors using yesterdays dinos and they are clean, well running motors today ...

I'd be the first to admit that Syn has it's place, Mostly in Blown gas motors.

But at work where ALL of our motors are Turbo'd, we found after millions of miles of testing that Syn oil did not offer any advantage and went back to a normal oil. This is a side by side testing using the same engines on normal oil and syn oil. Stop and go heavy outfits day in day out.

The life, maint and tear down of the engines showed that all syn did is cost more.. (Though we drip alot of oil (and when your adding hundreds of quarts pre day on makeup oil, Syn is $$) on our engines once they get a couple hundred thousand miles on them.. These are v6 Diesel which get replaced every 350k or when the UOAs show problems coming...) (The trans maybe make 200k before they are shot..)

And now we've seen someone who ran todays dino 12k using the GM OLI and it's not too bad UOA, what to think?

(though I'd not go that far since Dino oil is cheap...)

I'd have to say that if it makes folks happy to spend the $$ for syn, great! But thinking that your getting a less wear cleaner motor that will last forever cause your using "the best" is not really true..

(too bad we can not have the same engines run the same way and see in a few years...)

It's been and will cont to show that if the motor is a good motor (and let's face most motors are) it's going to do well with most oils changed correctly.

The motors we see the photos of sludge or such are prob going to be problem motors anyway.. No matter what oil is used. IMO

Take care, Bill

[ October 06, 2005, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Bill in Utah ]

 

[Dagwood]

That is exactly the conclusion that I have drawn from all the reading at this site. Today's dinos are a great value unless you are racing or going for extended OCI's.

I think synthetics may be a good choice for extremes (hot and cold) and for vehicles that sit idle for long periods. A friend of mine is a pilot and told me that his mechanic recommends synthetics for anything that sits idle for long times between uses. I guess that is because it does not break down over time.

A good conventional oil and recommended oil change intervals will probably keep most engines clean and trouble free for hundreds of thousands of miles.

 

[buster]

Also remember that the conventional oils we are talking about are using Group II and Group III basestocks to meet the GF-4 specs. Many are Group II+ with similar add packages as the synthetics so their won't be too much of a differece.

 

[slickfisher]

I agree. Simply put unless one owns a turbo'd car or otherwise high output/high tech/high powered engine, I truely believe a good dino oil with a religious OCI evey 3k/6mo and does some high temp/high speed running once a week to keep the volitiles down ( IE: not 2 miles to work and back only- this won't help a synthetic either), will meet the needs of the majority of car owners out there.

 

[vad]

Are the majority of car owners out there willing to put up with a religious OCI every 3K/6mo?

 

[JHZR2]

quote:

---

Originally posted by fuel tanker man:
Some of us are continuing to assume that sythetic oils will allow for longer OCI's.

As more and more evidence comes in, that seems to be less and less the case.

The current UOA posted here using Havoline dino (5W30 I think) in a GM 5.3 looked really good at nearly 13,000 miles.

So the notion that syns allow for extended drains is being consistently called into question by real world evidence.

For -30 degree starts, yes, an oil with the best cold flow possible is in order--and that would be a synthetic. But the question would still remain as to how much real wear reduction would be realized in -30F start-ups using the 0W30 syn versus a 5W30--or even a 5W20--dino.

Dan

---

Lets take our 94 previa as an example...

Up to 160k, it had 7500 mile DINO oil changes. Ran perfect. Since then it has had M1 10w30 changes at 12-13K, supplimented by UOA - with great results - 12-13ppm Fe, and next to nothing else. Runs perfect still at 197k.

Did the dino oil used from 0 miles to 160k, from 94 to 02 do well, even at the appalling 7500 mile OCI level? Apparently so, else the vehicle still wouldnt be like new in every way and the syn oil results wouldnt be as excellent as they are.

Do we save $ by upping the OCI that bit? likely not. Do we have some peace of mind? for sure!

Dino oil isnt the enemy.. just look at LC, somehow we can magically take dino oil to 10k mile OCIs when using it! It cant be THAT bad one way or another!

UOA is the only real way to tune for results... and the optimum tune may be a switch to dino or a switch to synthetic oil...

All in all though, for the average joe, dino oil is fine, and syn is fine too. Syn might edge out in cleanliness over long ownership periods, but how many well-meaning folks ever actually keep their vehicles for that long? IMO, the best thing to do is whatever feels right - syn or dino, drive gently, and not worry about it so much. End of the day syn is better, but not notably so for most joe consumers driving their commodity cars.

JMH

 

[rwl408]

If I were a first-time oil changer coming to this site, I would be worrying a lot if I choose not to use synthetic oil, not to have autoRX regularly, and not to do a UOA from time to time. Fortunately I have been doing all my own routine car maintenance for the past 20 years and know what information to pick up and what to discard.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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Fortunately I have been doing all my own routine car maintenance for the past 20 years and know what information to pick up and what to discard.

---

Well ..so have I ..but when I came here ..I only had the delusion that I knew it all. I didn't know what to pick up and what to discard.

You're a notch up having that figured out.

 

[rwl408]

quote:

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You're a notch up having that figured out.

---

Well, I am not. Otherwise I would not be here.

People here are giving out their experience or advices in ernest but takers have to listen wisely. For example, I change my oil (dino) and filter at 5000 miles. (For no other reason than I know it is time to change the oil when the odometer turns 5K, 10K, 15K,...) The last two cars I retired (donated), after serving 14 years (152,000 miles) and 15 years (167,000 miles) respectively, were due to problems not related to the engine. Is that an adequate OCI? I believe a lot of people at this forum will frown at it but it works out perfect for me.

 

[Gary Allan]

Oh ..we have all conventions here...even those that are unconventional

quote:

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For example, I change my oil (dino) and filter at 5000 miles.

---

I knew that you were on the fringe. A risk taker, huh?? j/k

You're actually on the outer edge in OCI terms for the dino user. It's very hard to break out of the 3k/3m prison.

 

[439SW]

Hi. I'm new here. I change my oil every 5k mi. and usually use a group 3 like Rotella T full syn or ST full Syn. The price is just above most dino's but still about a buck or so less than most synthetics.
I use a group 3 in my wife's car because of her driving style and sometimes it's around 7k or more miles before I realise it and get around to changing it.

 

[martyi]

Just wait until every car has an OLM. In a few years all cars will have them and they will be even more accurate than today. By that time I bet they will have settings that let you program the type of oil you use (synthetic/dino) and even various "severe" condition programs that the monitor may not be able to detect on its own such as dusty conditions and heavy towing. Then, OCIs will be a no brainer and will be far more accurate a measure than the arbitrary X mile/X months mind set many still have today. But we will still be here because the question will still remain - which oil?

 

[widman]

I carry both synthetic and Group II oils. I use Group II in my 12 vehicles with outstanding UOA results. I've also posted outstanding UOA results (even better) on synthetics of my customers. I still use the Group II and change oil at 6000 to 7000 km because 95% of our roads are dirt. Not that I have any, but no onboard system measures the dirt contamination. My oil change recomendations in Bolivia are based on dirt ingression. Or sometimes soot if people don't use diesel additives or maintain their injectors.
But the key to this site is you get to read and contribute different experiences and ideas, sort out the best solution for you, and go on.

 

[jsharp]

quote:

---

Originally posted by fuel tanker man:
Some of us are continuing to assume that sythetic oils will allow for longer OCI's.

As more and more evidence comes in, that seems to be less and less the case.


Dan

---

It's probably still a safe assumption on vehicles that aren't lightly driven. I don't think the difference is 3X though. Maybe not even 2X. There was some discussion on the problems that MB had after dealers put dino oil into vehicles with OLM's calibrated for synthetic...

 

[Terry]

Or be really cutting edge and quit generalizing on marketing names of products.

"synthetic, conventional,high mileage, extreme performance" to name a few.

Use WHATEVER lube you want from study,choice,affordability,specs,warranty,etc.

Then monitor with at least an annual oil analysis( properly interpreted) and DETERMINE continued course of action.

Really a shift in focus from marketing driven decisions to using emperical data to decide.

Many here are doing that and should point that out instead of carrying on the same lame arguments about NAMES.


Terry

 

[Oldwolf]

I use 10k OCI's on my car with M1EP. This costs me roughly the same as 3k OCI's with dino oil.

For me, it is just a matter of convenience having extended OCI’s.

If I was committed to 3-4k OCI’s then I would use dino oil no questions asked. This is because for the short OCI’s, I think that there isn’t enough of a difference between the two.

JMHO.


Brad