As to all the discussion about MMO

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Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I believe all Mystic is trying to do is CONVEY for the tenth time that no one here has the funding to do the lab testing, or supply the data you guys are looking for.

...But we're not necessarily looking for lab testing. It'd be nice, but that's not what we're talking about. It's just one among many ways to get info worth talking about.


Who pays for these other ways?
 
One doesn't need the resources of a "billionaire" to do a before and after compression test to back up a claim that a product cleaned the rings.

Or to write down mpg week after week both before product use and after.

So once agan, since us guys are not asking for it, why does this
"expensive lab testing" smoke screen keep coming up?
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Who pays for these other ways?

I made a detailed post a few weeks ago that answers that question. That post was in response to you, in another thread. In that post, I gave an example of the kind of testing that anyone could do at home that would give results worth talking about.

I'm assuming you saw that post, because you quoted it and responded to it, and then we had a conversation about it. You even seemed to endorse the example I gave.

Then, just a few days ago, I reposted a link IN THIS THREAD to that exact same post. I did this in response to a very similar question from moving2.

When I look back at this thread and related discussions, I'm genuinely surprised by the number of times I have had to repeat myself nearly verbatim to answer questions I have already addressed explicitly. I honestly don't know what to make of that. Any suggestions -- good, bad, or ugly -- are welcome.



Here's that post, again:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2348912/

The only monetary expense involved is the purchase price of the product.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Who pays for these other ways?

I made a detailed post a few weeks ago that answers that question. That post was in response to you, in another thread. In that post, I gave an example of the kind of testing that anyone could do at home that would give results worth talking about.

I'm assuming you saw that post, because you quoted it and responded to it, and then we had a conversation about it. You even seemed to endorse the example I gave.

Then, just a few days ago, I reposted a link IN THIS THREAD to that exact same post. I did this in response to a very similar question from moving2.

When I look back at this thread and related discussions, I'm genuinely surprised by the number of times I have had to repeat myself nearly verbatim to answer questions I have already addressed explicitly. I honestly don't know what to make of that. Any suggestions -- good, bad, or ugly -- are welcome.



Here's that post, again:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2348912/

The only monetary expense involved is the purchase price of the product.


Here we go again. This might answer you and Trajan. I recall seeing where compression results were posted, hyping another product used here, so what? I can write before and after numbers on paper and post them here, and show an improvement. What does it mean? It only means something if you believe me. MPG claims are attacked so can compression results. After all it is the word of the person posting the results, and if you feel that person is honest or not. After all this is tne Internet, and I'm also a skeptic.

I can also do a wet vs. dry compression test and depending on the condition of the engine get different results with a little squirt of oil, or maybe a different tool for the after test. If I'm the dishonest type, leave that bit of information out. But you already knew that.

IIRC in that thread you were talking about mpg, I told you I stopped logging mpg a long time ago, and that isn't what I was referring too.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
This might answer you and Trajan. I recall seeing where compression results were posted, hyping another product used here, so what? I can write before and after numbers on paper and post them here, and show an improvement. What does it mean? It only means something if you believe me. MPG claims are attacked so can compression results. After all it is the word of the person posting the results, and if you feel that person is honest or not. After all this is tne Internet, and I'm also a skeptic.

I can also do a wet vs. dry compression test and depending on the condition of the engine get different results with a little squirt of oil, or maybe a different tool for the after test. If I'm the dishonest type, leave that bit of information out. But you already knew that.

All of this is dead on. It's so nice to read a post from you with which I agree totally.
cheers3.gif


Before I answer these concerns, let me say this: The idea isn't to have an open-and-shut case (or "proof" as you might call it). As you rightly point out, that is impossible to expect from dialog over the Internet. The idea here is to increase the odds of being able to tell fact from fiction -- not only to convince others and root out shills on the Internet, but to make sure we're doing things better in our own lives. We can do this by bringing more evidence to the table, and by keeping everything open and above-board so others can scrutinize and criticize.


Raw numbers may be just as fakeable as words, but they provide some key advantages. When you have a series of before-and-after measurements, there is statistical math you can do that can be quite revealing. If that math makes the results look too clean or too random, that could mean it's more likely the data was faked. Excess variation within each set ("before" and "after") could also mean that any difference in the averages is likely to have been due to chance. Anyone with access to basic statistical software could repeat the analysis to confirm or refute, or they could look at it from another angle and bring something new to the table.

Again, it's not a slam-dunk, but it's leaps-and-bounds better than eyeballing something and then saying "take my word for it." And yes, it would be possible to fake a data set that could fool even an experienced statistician. But it's not something most people would know how to do, and it requires a fair bit of effort.

Here's another layer of sophistication: pictures and videos. For the trial I outlined, the person conducting it could post pictures or videos from each fill-up to a publicly available website on the day it happens, showing an odometer reading and the amount filled. If that person has a GPS-enabled smartphone, those pictures or videos could be geotagged. People on BITOG can then follow the experiment in real time. This still leaves doors open for mistakes or trickery, but it closes a lot as well.


Again, no one expects an absolutely unassailable case. Just something better than rough averages and vague, subjective testimonials.
 
We might just finally agree, maybe? LOL

Maybe we could have a data section, where people post their data, pictures, videos you name it, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I'd visit that section, as would many others. It might be a good idea. I do regret to say so far any data I've seen here I really wasn't impressed with, especially compression numbers. But its a start for sure. Not to beat a dead horse, the board rules could be changed stating only to comment about product success or failures which we can back up with data, and show the source. Then Bitog would be dull, and I'd be outside working on something instead of replying here.

Maybe the Mods can start a data section?
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

When I look back at this thread and related discussions, I'm genuinely surprised by the number of times I have had to repeat myself nearly verbatim to answer questions I have already addressed explicitly. I honestly don't know what to make of that. Any suggestions -- good, bad, or ugly -- are welcome.



I hope this doesn't come across as ugly, but here goes. Not everyone here, myself included remembers everything we read, or write. I don't think anyone here accepts what you write as Gospel, or what anyone else here writes as Gospel for that matter. So as far as me remembering a question you answered in the past, lots of luck. I forgot what my wife asked me to do 5 minutes ago, but that might be a defense mechanism at work.
smile.gif
 
Since I think we have finally gotten past the lab testing that is never going to happen for a lot of these supplements, I agree that it might be useful to have a section where people could upload higher quality proof. There could be stuff there like before and after photographs of the interior of an engine, video of an oil change with the mileage, compression testing, etc.

When I was using Auto-RX I thought about maybe getting some sort of little camera that could be inserted into the engine (engine off of course) and be able to take before and after photographs after an Auto-RX cleaning. I never did get such a camera but it is an idea. It is expecting a little too much for somebody to actually disassemble and reassemble an engine just to prove whether a certain supplement successfully cleans the interior of the engine. I have no idea how much such a tiny probe camera would cost.
 
Put it to rest, boys. It's just like blood pressure medication - Some people see the effects, some don't. You try a different one until you find the one that works.
If you like using MMO, then use it. Post your positive comments. If you've used it, and didn't see any effects, post them, too. But, don't go bashing something just because it didn't work for you. But, please, for everyone's sake, put it to rest.
 
I would be deliriously happy to support a "Data" or "Experiments" section on this website.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I would be deliriously happy to support a "Data" or "Experiments" section on this website.


Put on your puppy dog eyes, and beg to Helen.

I think it would be great to expand to a few more sections. We have "Food", "Bicycles", and "Computers". A few more along the lines of automotive oil related topics would be fantastic.
 
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Originally Posted By: Bamboooo

. But, don't go bashing something just because it didn't work for you.



Like ARX?

It isn't a question of bashing. It's a question of backing claims made. Like how how synlube claims to never need to change the oil. Or how it's claimed that MMO increases mpg. And how hackles get raised because some people dare to question it.

It's like questioning someone's religious beliefs. Some are getting upset because there are people who seek to understand why something does what it does. Or, put another way, is it the reason for the result.

The way it stands now, I can claim that MMO increased my mpog by 2-3. And, it will be followed by a slew of
'Good report" posts. Lemming like.

But was it the magic juice? Was it because I shift at 2K instead of 4K? Because I don't jack rabbit from every light?
Was it because I changed the plugs/filters/wires/coil packs?
Properly inflated the tires? Over inflated a little?

Accepting claims on their face, especially on a site that people come to learn from, is intellectual apathy at least.

And it shouldn't be that way. People like Doug Hillary or Molakule can post like that. They have the reputation to do so. And most important, they can back up their posts.
 
Why not let is rest Trajan? We all seem to agree on a new section, which with any luck might put these discussions to rest. A section filled with facts, experiments, tests and data, that can be backed up. I'd hope prior to that, our members have enough brain matter to make smart decisions and realize a product like Synlube was garbage. I'd bet they do! There are enough people here having positive comments about products like MoS2, LG, MMO, Kreen, Amsoil, RL, and a list of others that actually have value to some, and are worth looking at, [once again for some of us]. All it takes is a bit of common sense, and I think most people on this site have some. Lets see if a new section comes to be.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Why not let is rest Trajan?

I will gladly stand corrected, but I'll venture a guess: he's still not satisfied that we have reached an understanding as to standards of evidence, the treatment of claims, skepticism, and so on.

Maybe I'm projecting, because I know I'm not satisfied on that point -- although, given the outcome of this conversation, I'm willing to let it rest.

I do think that a "Data" or "Experiments" section would be a good first step toward raising the quality of discourse on BITOG. Maybe that's the best thing to do for now and we can go from there.
 
Let it rest?

When I see nonsense such as
"We have a fair amount of people who hate MMO and will pick your test results apart,so be prepared."?

Or any posts similar?

Especially when such statements are meant to encourage dogma?

When such posts all but come right out and state that if you question MMO you hate it?

Very shill like don't you think.

Nope, not satisfied. When posts such as the one in red stop, when the dogmatists, (is that a word?) don't get snippy when their favorite juice isn't treated as if it's beyond question....

Then it can rest.
 
First of all - Think about what it is that you're getting so worked up over - An observation on the effects of MMO. Really? You've got it good! This is an open, free site, where people can exchange information, whether it be facts, opinions, ideas, or personal observations about oil related material. No one is required to be a scientist. No one is required to be a chemical engineer. Here's an idea - Start up a website, charge $500 a year to be a member, and have strict rules & guidelines having to post only factual, proven data. That way, you get only the hardcore, serious oil gurus that you're looking for. Granted, Molekule is a very knowledgeable and valuable member. Most of us, you, me, are the average Joe Blow, who want to stand around the "oil" water cooler, and discuss oil related topics.
Basically, what I'm trying to say, and have said before, is - what works for one person, might not work for another. It doesn't make it bad, or a "snake oil". If a lot of people have tried it, and are pleased with it, sure, I'll jump on and try it. If I don't get the results I'm looking for, I'll try something else. Good for them.
I take high BP medicine. My BP went down. Oh, it wasn't the medicine. It was the diet, the time of day you checked it, the hot nurse checking it, the crazy night before, the..... you see where I'm going with this? You're gunfighter is dead. Old news. Now, I think I'll let it rest.
 
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Originally Posted By: Trajan

Let it rest?

When I see nonsense such as
"We have a fair amount of people who hate MMO and will pick your test results apart,so be prepared."?

Or any posts similar?

Especially when such statements are meant to encourage dogma?

When such posts all but come right out and state that if you question MMO you hate it?

Very shill like don't you think.

Nope, not satisfied. When posts such as the one in red stop, when the dogmatists, (is that a word?) don't get snippy when their favorite juice isn't treated as if it's beyond question....

Then it can rest.


I hope you weren't calling me a shill, you really have no clue. I'm just a satisfied product user sharing opinions and observations from first hand experience dating back to the 1970's, which lately are getting targeted mostly by you now. There are plenty of members here who have thanked me in PM's not only about MMO but other products I wrote about, so to them it had value.

D00df00d and I are past this now it seems. I guess you can't let it rest, that's your loss. I'm already beyond this, hoping for a new section. At least I can now carry out an intelligent conversation with d00df00d about tests, results, procedures, and outcomes, if we get the new section. Maybe we can all learn. With your attitude I see we aren't going to get very far are we? We have a fair amount of product haters from every product line, if the testing was properly conducted, pictures weren't edited, and the test is on the up and up, then it will be very easy to see who is a product hater and those people will be called out I'm sure.

Here's a thought I mentioned this before. Add me to your ignore list, then see if threads I post in improve for you. It might be worth a try for you.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Why not let is rest Trajan?

I will gladly stand corrected, but I'll venture a guess: he's still not satisfied that we have reached an understanding as to standards of evidence, the treatment of claims, skepticism, and so on.

Maybe I'm projecting, because I know I'm not satisfied on that point -- although, given the outcome of this conversation, I'm willing to let it rest.

I do think that a "Data" or "Experiments" section would be a good first step toward raising the quality of discourse on BITOG. Maybe that's the best thing to do for now and we can go from there.


At least we are willing to let it rest. Then see if/when such a section comes to be, and as you said: "Maybe that's the best thing to do for now and we can go from there." I'm sure you'll have lots of suggestions, methods, etc., that people can employ.
 
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