As to all the discussion about MMO

[d00df00d]

Let me rephrase.

Why do you take issue with people who pick apart claims and demand evidence?

You just agreed that an atmosphere of skepticism and a high standard of evidence would be better for this board than what we have now, so I'm just trying to see where the disconnect is.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Let me rephrase.

Why do you take issue with people who pick apart claims and demand evidence?

You just agreed that an atmosphere of skepticism and a high standard of evidence would be better for this board than what we have now, so I'm just trying to see where the disconnect is.


We're both skeptics, you're skeptical of testimony from hundreds of people here, and I'm skeptical of data published from companies trying to sell product. Since no one is going to foot the bill for unbiased independent testing of the products in question I guess we'll always be at odds. I'll continue on my merry way, trying products and sharing info, good or bad, and you'll make it a point to cast doubt. Keep in mind if and when you publish data the knife cuts both ways.

 

[Mystic]

It is extremely unlikely that at anytime in the future a single individual here or a group are going to pay whatever it would cost (surely at least $100.000.00 or perhaps $1,000,000.00) to fund some sort of official lab test of some supplement. So we might as well forget about all of that.

I believe in being skeptical about supplements. I usually would not try something unless there was some evidence of a product possibly working or a very large number of guys here stating that they had had positive results with something. For example, one of the reasons I was willing to try Tufoil was because of a positive article in Popular Mechanics Magazine.

The Oil Additives section would have extremely few posts if in order to post people had to supply lab evidence that a supplement they were using actually worked.

If somebody is able to supply some sort of evidence, such as before and after photographs of the interior of an engine, I am willing to look at something like that. Other possible evidence can be things like compression testing, careful monitoring of fuel economy, and so forth.

But I fail to see what is wrong with somebody being allowed here to post that they had positive (or negative) experience with some oil supplement. Don't we want to find out about supplements in this section? Can we not benefit from somebody else's experience? What is the purpose of this Oil Additives section?

For that matter, anybody who decides to use Amsoil, or Redline, or Royal Purple, or any other such product has to depend on what the manufacturers of those products are stating as to the effectiveness of their products. I don't see Valvoline, or Pennzoil, or anybody else releasing secret lab testing that they keep to themselves. If there was a problem with some brand of motor oil, it would surely quickly become apparent. But people here surely would be allowed to discuss any such issues with a brand of motor oil, right? Or would they have to keep quiet about their engine being ruined until after official lab results had been released?

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Sometimes testimony from respected members is all there is to go by!


And is such "testimony" above questioning? One would hope not.


You missed my point again, sorry.


And you've missed mine.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Sometimes testimony from respected members is all there is to go by!


And is such "testimony" above questioning? One would hope not.


You missed my point again, sorry.


And you've missed mine.


That's life.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Let me rephrase.

Why do you take issue with people who pick apart claims and demand evidence?

You just agreed that an atmosphere of skepticism and a high standard of evidence would be better for this board than what we have now, so I'm just trying to see where the disconnect is.


We're both skeptics, you're skeptical of testimony from hundreds of people here, and I'm skeptical of data published from companies trying to sell product. Since no one is going to foot the bill for unbiased independent testing of the products in question I guess we'll always be at odds. I'll continue on my merry way, trying products and sharing info, good or bad, and you'll make it a point to cast doubt. Keep in mind if and when you publish data the knife cuts both ways.


Who is asking for anyone to foot the bill? Someone posts "OMG, MMO increased my mpg by 2!!". And the next post, the first two words are "Good report."

So what is that conclusion based on?

Sure, posted data can be questioned. As it should be. BUT, you have to come up with data to refute it. And "OMG, I got 2mpg more with MMO.", isn't going to cut it. Regardless of how "respected" a member might be.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint


That's life.


So are you saying that because a "respected " member posts something that it is beyond reproach?

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
We're both skeptics, you're skeptical of testimony from hundreds of people here

Wrong. I'm skeptical of EVERYTHING.

I'm LESS skeptical of info that I can check myself, and/or that comes from a source that I recognize as independent and that uses methods I recognize as objective.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
It is extremely unlikely that at anytime in the future a single individual here or a group are going to pay whatever it would cost (surely at least $100.000.00 or perhaps $1,000,000.00) to fund some sort of official lab test of some supplement. So we might as well forget about all of that.



So who is asking them to? Someone posts they got a MPG increase using MMO, and it's accepted on its face.

Many posts on this board make claims, and they get a pass. Why is that?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
And "OMG, I got 2mpg more with MMO.", isn't going to cut it. Regardless of how "respected" a member might be.


You keep clinging to mpg claims, I don't recall making any in a long while, I stopped calculating them. Tell it to the people making the mpg claims.

When a lifter stops ticking, an engine is cleaned as a result of using a product, oil use is reduced or eliminated, or an engine is running better why is that a problem? Many people here are posting success stories, are they all liars?

BTW I'm not the person looking for data. I've seen tons of bogus data, most of it not worth the cost of the ink used to print it.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
We're both skeptics, you're skeptical of testimony from hundreds of people here

Wrong. I'm skeptical of EVERYTHING.

I'm LESS skeptical of info that I can check myself, and/or that comes from a source that I recognize as independent and that uses methods I recognize as objective.


I guess I'm skeptical of everything too, but have an open mind, learn, and try for myself. ONLY IF I THINK THE PRODUCT HAS MERIT. I have yet to see any "independent" test of anything here worth looking at, only sales hype. Some in the form of "data", put up by companies selling product, and using tests their products can pass. Even if the test is meaningless. Remember every single product spoken about here has to be bought, that means there is a company making, selling, and hyping it.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan
And "OMG, I got 2mpg more with MMO.", isn't going to cut it. Regardless of how "respected" a member might be.


You keep clinging to mpg claims, I don't recall making any in a long while, I stopped calculating them.


You just keep posting "Good report." when someone posts it.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan
And "OMG, I got 2mpg more with MMO.", isn't going to cut it. Regardless of how "respected" a member might be.


You keep clinging to mpg claims, I don't recall making any in a long while, I stopped calculating them.


You just keep posting "Good report." when someone posts it.


Sorry that bothers you, they usually have other comments other than mpg claims. If my posts bother you there's always the IGNORE option.

IIRC you've also posted many times your opinion and observations about products, certainly not based on any factual data, just your experiences or what you've learned here. Do I have you mixed up with someone else?

 

[Trajan]

Case in point.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2332284/

I utterly fail to see why not taking claims such as above on nothing more than face value is such a problem. At least for some.

You can't seperate the wheat from the chaff with blind acceptence.

That might be fine for some.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
You can't seperate the wheat from the chaff with blind acceptence.


Give me a break, folks did exactly this for years with ARX.
No offence but IIRC you were one of this stuffs biggest proponents. If anything worked on blind faith and butt dyno it was this stuff.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Case in point.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2332284/

I utterly fail to see why not taking claims such as above on nothing more than face value is such a problem. At least for some.

You can't seperate the wheat from the chaff with blind acceptence.

That might be fine for some.


Still hung up on mpg claims are we? Nice report, LOL. Remember IGNORE is always an option.

 

[d00df00d]

I'm speechless.

After all this effort to make it clear that it's not about particular things like MPG or MMO...

I think I'm done until someone has something new to say. Trajan, you?

 

[demarpaint]

^^ Good ^^

 

[mechtech2]

I can not prove that my mother's mushroom soup is good.
But it is.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Mystic

For that matter, anybody who decides to use Amsoil, or Redline, or Royal Purple, or any other such product has to depend on what the manufacturers of those products are stating as to the effectiveness of their products. I don't see Valvoline, or Pennzoil, or anybody else releasing secret lab testing that they keep to themselves. If there was a problem with some brand of motor oil, it would surely quickly become apparent. But people here surely would be allowed to discuss any such issues with a brand of motor oil, right? Or would they have to keep quiet about their engine being ruined until after official lab results had been released?


Your comparison between motor oils and additives is salient to the whole "additives" discussion. There's a key difference: motor oils are required to meet certain guidelines to meet independent approvals; additives are not. So while we may not have complete lab test data on motor oils, we know that if an oil meets (or claims to meet) a specification, we can assume there's a minimum level of performance and parameters. In the world of additives, there are simply no real guidelines or requirements.

That's not to say that additives don't "work" or have usefulness. But I do think in absence of these requirements, it's reasonable for one to want "proof", and to question anecdotes; particularly anecdotes like fuel economy that involve a TON of other variables.