As to all the discussion about MMO

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
You can't seperate the wheat from the chaff with blind acceptence.


Give me a break, folks did exactly this for years with ARX.
No offence but IIRC you were one of this stuffs biggest proponents. If anything worked on blind faith and butt dyno it was this stuff.


1: Nope. Not one of its biggest proponents. Not even close. In fact, during its heyday, I wasn't around much. Now, I'm giving it a second look. There was even a time that I said I wouldn't use it again.

However: Taking a long critical look at the late Gary Allen's posts, both here and at the other place, I decided it was worth another try.

And any product that the banned c3po/pontiacfan favored is suspect. And having c3po/pontiacfan aka big bear declare that Gary went to his grave knowing that arx is a sham,(IOWs, GA was a fraud.), tells me that there is more to arx then meets the eye.

2: Give you a break? Are we playing tit for tat. If you were so against it then, then why are you for it now? Don't really care about way back when. Not the kind of history I'm interested in.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I'm speechless.

After all this effort to make it clear that it's not about particular things like MPG or MMO...

I think I'm done until someone has something new to say. Trajan, you?


Yeah, I'm done. Everything posted , no matter how outlandish, is true.

Synlube does what it says it does.

MMO is the Second Coming. Pay $18 or so a gallon at Walmart, fill your tank with it, and your daily beater will perform like that $100,000 Corvette.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I can not prove that my mother's mushroom soup is good.
But it is.


Ewwww, mushrooms

 

[Trav]

Trajan if i mistook you for someone else, i apologize. Yep probably c3po, i don't know Pontiac Fan.
No i am not for ARX then or now, i tried it and tried it some more, lots of bottles in many cars for many thousands of miles but got no results worth noting.
Anyone can be sold a bill of goods if its presented the right way even GA, i honestly believe i was with this product, between me and my brother we spend a lot of money (in the hundreds) and gave the product a fair shot.
IMHO and from my own experience its not worth the money or trouble.

MMO has stopped stuck lifter noise fairly quickly so it does have some benefits, i have no idea about MPG increase or anything else but for $5 its worth a shot if the engine is making hydraulic valve train noise.

 

[Bamboooo]

I have proof MMO works. Scientific proof.

Oh, and mechtech2's mothers soup is good. I can prove that, too. It got me 3 more mpg, and quieted down my valvetrain.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: JOD
But I do think in absence of these requirements, it's reasonable for one to want "proof", and to question anecdotes; particularly anecdotes like fuel economy that involve a TON of other variables.


But, but. you're suppossed to take these anecdotes as absolutely true because anonymous posters on the internet say so.

 

[Mystic]

Trav, thank you for the sanity. You tried MMO and noticed that it seemed to stop lifter noise. That is an observation. Just like when I noticed that an Auto-RX cleaning seemed to stop a seal leak. There is nothing wrong with people here posting their honest observations either positive or negative about supplements. How else are people going to find out about these supplements? It is extremely unlikely that there will be expensive lab testing of these products, unless that testing is paid for by the promoters of the products, in which case there has to be some doubt.

I for one still want to be able to read about the observations about supplements made by people here.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Mystic

I for one still want to be able to read about the observations about supplements made by people here.


So do I. The people who are opposed to observations, opinions, etc. should consider staying out of this section, since the independent scientific data they're looking for most likely won't be found.

 

[Mystic]

It is silly to expect some relatively small time manufacturer of a product like MMO (I think Turtle Wax owns MMO) to hire some lab to do expensive research on MMO. Turtle Wax is a corporation of course and they have funding but I don't think they can be compared to Exxon/Mobil or Pennzoil. And in any case, does anybody here see Exxom/Mobil or Pennzoil supplying all of the details of their testing?

No single individual here has the funding to do expensive lab testing on an oil supplement unless there is a billionaire here we don't know about-and he would have to be willing to pay for it.

I don't mind people's personal observations, good or bad, on products as long as people are honest. Without the contributions of those people this Oil Additives section would probably not even exist. People who read about others observations can make up their own minds about whether they want to use a product or not.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
It is silly to expect some relatively small time manufacturer of a product like MMO (I think Turtle Wax owns MMO) to hire some lab to do expensive research on MMO. Turtle Wax is a corporation of course and they have funding but I don't think they can be compared to Exxon/Mobil or Pennzoil. And in any case, does anybody here see Exxom/Mobil or Pennzoil supplying all of the details of their testing?

No single individual here has the funding to do expensive lab testing on an oil supplement unless there is a billionaire here we don't know about-and he would have to be willing to pay for it.

I don't mind people's personal observations, good or bad, on products as long as people are honest. Without the contributions of those people this Oil Additives section would probably not even exist. People who read about others observations can make up their own minds about whether they want to use a product or not.


Here's a thought, although I think the site would see little to no posting. When speaking about oil, gasoline, filters, grease, additives, spark plugs, car soap, wax, tools, cars, trucks, engines, etc, etc, etc. Only post factual independent information, and the source. Then when someone wants to know what's the best finding it should be pretty easy. Also being a moderator on the site will be easy too.

 

[d00df00d]

Out of curiosity: where is this idea of "expensive lab testing" coming from? I haven't seen it mentioned except by people who seem to be opposed to it.

 

[Capa]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Mystic

I for one still want to be able to read about the observations about supplements made by people here.


So do I. The people who are opposed to observations, opinions, etc. should consider staying out of this section, since the independent scientific data they're looking for most likely won't be found.


The problem, Demarpaint, is that when people like myself and hundreds others post our negative results. Several pages back you ridiculously stated that those who were haters had never used the product. You can't have it both ways. If you admit that the independent scientific data is not to be found and then don't ignore the data, opinions, and observations of those of us who have used MMO and either saw no result or had a negative result (like losing MPG).

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Out of curiosity: where is this idea of "expensive lab testing" coming from? I haven't seen it mentioned except by people who seem to be opposed to it.


The only ones who have.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Capa
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Mystic

I for one still want to be able to read about the observations about supplements made by people here.


So do I. The people who are opposed to observations, opinions, etc. should consider staying out of this section, since the independent scientific data they're looking for most likely won't be found.


The problem, Demarpaint, is that when people like myself and hundreds others post our negative results. Several pages back you ridiculously stated that those who were haters had never used the product. You can't have it both ways. If you admit that the independent scientific data is not to be found and then don't ignore the data, opinions, and observations of those of us who have used MMO and either saw no result or had a negative result (like losing MPG).


Sanity!!!

 

[Mystic]

I am not opposed to lab testing of a product. I just think that such lab testing is very unlikely. Beyond that people can do things like supply before and after photographs of an engine interior, report before and after compression testing, keep careful fuel mileage records, etc.

There used to be a guy here who posted that he did test Auto-RX and another product. I think he used an old lawnmower engine. And there are a few products that are supposed to have received lab testing, such as zMax.

I heard about Auto-RX after coming to this website and I tried it. Coincidence or not, it seemed to stop a seal leak in a car I owned after I did an Auto-RX cleaning. I started to use the product. But it seemed like nobody ever produced any kind of convincing evidence that Auto-RX really cleaned engine interiors. And then this guy said that he had received some sort of under the table payment and I got angry and stopped using Auto-RX. I don't know if that guy was telling the truth or not but what he said angered me quite a bit.

Like anybody else I would like to see more proof that something works. But there are limits to what proof can be provided.

In my personal experience I have heard a power steering unit stop making noise in cold weather after I used some Lubegard Power Steering Supplement. This meant something to me but of course nobody has to believe what I said about that. It was my personal experience and I have no proof of it. That and some other things made me a believer in Lubegard products. For example, three automakers once approved Lubegard transmission supplements.

There are a few other supplements I have some faith in. Bars Leaks used to be used in coolant systems in assembly plants. Sta-Bil is a very widely known product. And some corporations make their own supplements. Chevron, for example, makes Techron. I would assume that Techron has been tested and demonstrated to work. The military did a lot of testing on Breakfree.

There have been a few guys here who had ties to various oil corporations. I assumed they might have assess to information the general public did not have assess to.

Other than all of that, about the only way you can determine if something works is to try it. I am not willing to try just anything. I will try only certain things. But I then decide for myself if something works or not. I remember if something works. If something appears to do nothing, I don't buy that product ever again.

Beyond all of this, nobody has to use any supplement unless it is required by an automaker. A typical car or truck will run just fine on good quality products and with reasonable OCIs for oil changes, etc. About the only exceptions are sludge monsters and defective vehicles. And of course you never can tell about the used car.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Capa
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Mystic

I for one still want to be able to read about the observations about supplements made by people here.


So do I. The people who are opposed to observations, opinions, etc. should consider staying out of this section, since the independent scientific data they're looking for most likely won't be found.


The problem, Demarpaint, is that when people like myself and hundreds others post our negative results. Several pages back you ridiculously stated that those who were haters had never used the product. You can't have it both ways. If you admit that the independent scientific data is not to be found and then don't ignore the data, opinions, and observations of those of us who have used MMO and either saw no result or had a negative result (like losing MPG).


As long as you've searched the archives why not look where I suggested people post their results good or bad. I've said it in more than one thread here. As far as lost mpg it happens usually from too much of a UCL, you can lose power too. Funny though mostly gained mpg claims are attacked and questioned. I also mentioned I no longer track mpg, thanks for sharing though. It is helpful to many people here.

As far as haters not using the product, there are plenty here, and it goes beyond MMO, for oil, filters etc, etc. I don't ignore negative posts, you have me mixed up with someone else.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Mystic


In my personal experience I have heard a power steering unit stop making noise in cold weather after I used some Lubegard Power Steering Supplement. This meant something to me but of course nobody has to believe what I said about that. It was my personal experience and I have no proof of it. That and some other things made me a believer in Lubegard products. For example, three automakers once approved Lubegard transmission supplements.

There are a few other supplements I have some faith in. Bars Leaks used to be used in coolant systems in assembly plants. There have been a few guys here who had ties to various oil corporations. I assumed they might have assess to information the general public did not have assess to.



Mystic this is my point. There are suppliments that offer benefits with no lab data backing it up. LG red stopped a delay going into reverse in my Aerostar. How do I know? Because everytime I changed the ATF the delay was still there, then after adding LG red the delay went away. I guess one can say I'm lucky, it was a coincidence, I'm FOS, or it happened. Bars stop leak has stopped a radiator leak in my Aerostar for a few years now. How do I know, the radiator stopped leaking after adding the stuff, the leak came back when I flushed it, and stopped when I added it again. Maybe now someone can attack those claims and give MMO a rest.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Mystic

No single individual here has the funding to do expensive lab testing on an oil supplement unless there is a billionaire here we don't know about-and he would have to be willing to pay for it.


So who keeps bringing it up? Neither doodfood or I have. Only those who perfer unsupported claims/anecdotes over data, any kind of data, bring it up

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Mystic

No single individual here has the funding to do expensive lab testing on an oil supplement unless there is a billionaire here we don't know about-and he would have to be willing to pay for it.


So who keeps bringing it up? Neither doodfood or I have. Only those who perfer unsupported claims/anecdotes over data, any kind of data, bring it up


?? I guess I missed your point again. I believe all Mystic is trying to do is CONVEY for the tenth time that no one here has the funding to do the lab testing, or supply the data you guys are looking for. So then all we have is opinions. Remember he isn't the one asking for the data, he's just trying to explain why it can't be found. I'll state again for the record this isn't only about MMO, in my case.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I believe all Mystic is trying to do is CONVEY for the tenth time that no one here has the funding to do the lab testing, or supply the data you guys are looking for.

...But we're not necessarily looking for lab testing. It'd be nice, but that's not what we're talking about. It's just one among many ways to get info worth talking about.