Are synthetics really worth the extra bucks?

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Bill, don't worry I also have Chevron and Pennzoil at $.59/qt and under. Actually if you take out the price of the M1/M1EP (B3G3 coupons), my PP and ML Syn were less than $1/qt, probably right around the price of the dino I have, and the rebates usually included cheap or free oil filters too.

There's more than one way to skin a cat.
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I've read many uoa's of dino and blend favorites that rank up there with synthetics...I have a nagging feeling that unless a car is driven aggressively or in extreme weather, buying synthetic oil does more for the oil companies than for our cars....am i right?




I buy synthetics because I'm 1st & last owners of my vehicles.

If I were to sell prematurely or lease -- I would run dino.
 
i've read everyone's posts over and over but..Bill in Utah..u get gold IMHO. Your experience is convincing and is in line with the many uoa's i've seen on good dino's. for everyone else...its a matter of doing 1 or 2 extra oil changes a year! we're all in it 4 the luv of the game right?
besides,the experience of pouring that brand new golden oil into my car at every oc gives me gratification thats hard to describe...thats gotta b worth something...
 
As has been mentioned, this is a matter of perspective.
Current conventional oils are a very high quality product. Synthetics have some advantages on the extreme fringes of performance measurements on the bench, but in actual applications very few experience those conditions in real workld applications.
I enjoy running Either based on my needs at the time. For now with two new vehicles limited to 5k mile OCI's it means I only change my oil once or twice a year and I use conventional.
 
IMHO after reading everyone's posts...i have to give the gold to Bill...he proves his point with several cars and uoa's and over several years i'm assuming...

would u'r choice still be dino if trips were mostly short <10 miles or do u think the added film strength of M1 would make a difference? just an afterthought...
 
"My 1999 Ford Taurus at 61k and 108k had to have head gaskets and was spotless inside."

Our 99 Taurus at over 100k miles is also spotless, looking into the oil filler cap, and it had a steady diet of dealer oil changes for about the first 75k or so miles. The 93 Taurus is different though, as there is noticable varnish looking into the engine via the oil filler cap, it has over 200k miles on it, but it's been that way for quite awhile, since at least 100k miles as I remember. It too had steady dealer oil changes for about the first 75k miles, a variety of places to change the oil up to maybe 150k or so miles, and I've been using synthetic blends and synthetics since then. I wish I'd used synthetics all along, as now I'm on the 2nd AutoRx in an attempt to reduce the oil consumption.

The regular oil for the truck is 15w40 HDEO, and I notice it's quieter with an Exxon Elite blend or with my own blend of Delvac 1300/Mobil 1 T&S. I like the better winter weight of the T&S, which seems to be an excellent oil.
 
There is one thing Bill mentioned that I question. He said the engine will stay cleaner running dino than it will when running extended OCI's with syn.

I have recently switched from using Havoline dino with 6K OCI's to M1 EP with 12K OCI's. When I changed my Havoline at 6K, I noticed the color of the oil was only slightly darker than it was when new. I have about 4-5K miles on my first OCI with the M1 and it's color is already darker than the Havoline ever got. My question is this; why would this oil be getting so dark so soon if the Havoline kept the engine absolutely clean? My guess is the Havoline didn't keep the engine clean and the M1 is removing what the Havoline left behind. Where am I going wrong with this train of thought?
 
Oil darkens for a number of reasons. M1 is an oil that always darkened early/easily in my car (within 1500-2000 miles), even after running it for 80k miles, so it couldn't still have been cleaning.
 
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I have about 4-5K miles on my first OCI with the M1 and it's color is already darker than the Havoline ever got. My question is this; why would this oil be getting so dark so soon if the Havoline kept the engine absolutely clean? My guess is the Havoline didn't keep the engine clean and the M1 is removing what the Havoline left behind. Where am I going wrong with this train of thought?





Differnt oils will discolor at differnt rates. Do not mistake oil color for contamination or cleaning action. Another issue is anytime you change the oil chemistry you are running a number of things happen. The additives that are part of the previous oil (and there is always some left over after a change) are potentially not compatable with the PAO. This could also cause a change in colour.
By the second oil change with the new oil tyrp you will have removed enough of the previous oil that the oil will not change color as rapidly.
 
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Oil darkens for a number of reasons. M1 is an oil that always darkened early/easily in my car (within 1500-2000 miles), even after running it for 80k miles, so it couldn't still have been cleaning.




That's not necessarily true. There has been a lot of discussions in this forum where people have said THE reason one oil gets darker sooner than another is because its detergents are more effective at removing and suspending contaminants and tarnishes in the engine. Is that a totally untrue premis?
 
If you get a sense of personal satisfaction using the synthetics then they are worth the $$. If you are operating the vehicle under extreme conditions such as very cold weather or searing stop/go driving, they are worth the $$. Otherwise, the SM/GF4 rated dinos are so good (choose your brand)90% of the drivers out there need nothing else.
 
To pick up on Bottger's comment (and pick on Bill some
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), I'd add that while I agree with much of what Bill posted, I do disagree with some of it.

First, which "synthetics" are we talking about. Perhaps I shouldn't lay this one at Bill's feet, as the OP framed the discussion in these terms. As we've all seen from the never-ending "what oila are (are not) really synthetic" debates, there is an extraordinarily broad variety of different products that have now been made to fit under the "synthetic" umbrella. Heck, even some assumed-to-be-dino products contain a bunch of "synthetic" oil in them. For example, Mobil Clean 5000 (which Mobil does not push as a blend) contains enough syn ester that Frank Miller recommends against using it in the ARX rinse phase. Anyway, I'm not really convinced by conclusions slapped broad-brush against wide categories like "synthetic". Bill mentioned lower wear with M1 vs. the others noted -- what about Redline, Syntec (US or German), the many flavors of Amsoil, and so on? Are we generalizing about them all?

Second, as to the UOA, no, of course they don't "lie", but at least in their $25-50 form, they don't exactly tell the whole story either.

Third, as Bill recognizes by implication, most forms of what we call "synthetic" oil do last longer in service than "dino" oils generally do. For someone who stacks up the miles as heavily as I do (I fluctuate between 30-40k miles per year), reasonable extension of OCIs saves me time in a way that's much more pertinent and important than saving a few bucks by using cheap oil and changing on short OCIs. Cost may always be a factor, but this begs the question: how much of a factor? I have a whopping four quart crankcase -- for me, it's a very, very small factor. Of course, if you've got a vehicle with a really big crankcase, the math changes, perhaps enough to change the ultimate syn/dino decision for some users.

As far as MPG, this is really a straw man point. I've never looked to synthetics to provide mpg gains, substantial or otherwise, though I do see the theoretical arguments why they might have an advantage.

I'm waiting with baited breath for someone to do some back-to-back testing of conventional 0w-30 oils vs synthetic 0w-30 oils -- oh wait, that's right, conventional base oils aren't good enough to make a stable, customer-useable 0w-30. . .
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I have heard from people I repsect that no oil will clean an engine. Maybe synthetics will KEEP and engine clean, but not clean it.



No, synthetics can CLEAN an engine, if used long enough. The cleaning process may not be nearly as fast (or as dramatic) as a real engine cleaner (such as Auto-RX), but there will be some cleaning action. For example, I switched a (used) CRX over to synthetic at about 180k, and the engine now (at about 260k) looks much cleaner than it did previously.
 
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I have heard from people I repsect that no oil will clean an engine. Maybe synthetics will KEEP and engine clean, but not clean it.




I have heard from people in this forum that syn will clean an engine. It's funny how so many different claims can be can be so far apart? Who's right?
 
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Oil darkens for a number of reasons. M1 is an oil that always darkened early/easily in my car (within 1500-2000 miles), even after running it for 80k miles, so it couldn't still have been cleaning.




That's not necessarily true. There has been a lot of discussions in this forum where people have said THE reason one oil gets darker sooner than another is because its detergents are more effective at removing and suspending contaminants and tarnishes in the engine. Is that a totally untrue premis?




IMO, you're both sorta right (there I go being diplomatic again...). Per some of our expert analysts and brewers, some oils darken quickly as their add packs first react to the heat of an operating engine. This is a known "side effect" of use, and does not reflect "cleaning" or oxidation of the oil. OTOH, sometimes, if introduced to a dirty engine, oil will darken quickly for that reason. In short, oil may darken quickly for any one, or a combination of reasons. IMO, of course.
 
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...besides,the experience of pouring that brand new golden oil into my car at every oc gives me gratification thats hard to describe...




I get that same satisfaction, but my oil is {b]PURPLE.
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