Are New Vehicles Too Expensive?

[kawie_guy]

Originally Posted by CKN
Originally Posted by kawie_guy
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Why so many insist on making it their business how other spend their money? Who cares what others can or cannot afford? Market is the way it is. If some are upset because they cannot get their favorite truck or SUV cheap anymore, well suck it up. That's what happens when something becomes trendy. Or move on to something that is not trendy anymore, like sedans.



Easy for you to say. You live in Commifornia and drive three cars.
I need a truck for work, and I need a truck to play. Can't do any of that with a car, or else I'd have one.
Now that trucks have become the new, trendy vehicle for folks who just use them to get a gallon of milk on Saturday, people think they need to be like a Rolls Royce, which keeps driving the cost up.
Never in my life have I needed a heated steering wheel, or 360° cameras on any of my trucks. I'd rather see the makers ditch all that sissy [censored] and start making trucks tougher and more reliable for folks like me who actually use a truck like a truck.


I don't get these "immature swipes" at California. While I'm glad I left-if you own a house in a half decent neighborhood-you are a millionaire-maybe people are jealous of that aspect.


I'm not jealous of anybody living in that awful place. And if I'm immature for expressing the fact that it's a socialist state full of people trying to leave it, then so be it. There's getting to be more Californians in Utah than Utahns. Same thing happening in Montana, Colorado, and Arizona.
We don't hate your home state, we just don't like it very much!

Btw, was your pic of the white truck at the Eagle Mountain Chevron?

 

[SubLGT]

From Bob Lutz:

Quote
American car buyers are not price sensitive; they are monthly payment sensitive, and it doesn't matter how many years their loans go. As a result, financing periods have evolved from the old 36-month norm to 48 months, then 60 months, and recently 84 months. The car will be worn out before it's paid off, and the customer has negative equity for almost the whole financing period.

Leasing is another way out. A lease is essentially a customer covering a vehicle's depreciation while driving it. A vehicle that is sought after depreciates less than a wallflower. Thus, the seemingly insane situation where a slow-selling luxury sedan can have a much higher monthly lease rate than far more expensive full-size pickups or SUVs, which enjoy great demand as two-or three-year-old, off-lease vehicles.

A top-trim diesel duallie pickup will push the $100,000 barrier today. A Cadillac Escalade or Lincoln Navigator will crack it. Stuff of fantasy a few years ago. I own a 2008 GMC Denali with everything. I still have the sticker: $48,000 and change.

Fast-forward to 2015, when I bought a new GMC Yukon XL Denali for a bit over $70,000. New Tahoes can be close to $70,000 now, Yukons even more. What is happening here? Is it just too much? Will customers revolt? What are manufacturers thinking? Truth is that pricing has been skewed to the products the public wants. Product planners have to marry two totally different portfolios: The first is a lineup that will trigger lust in the buying public. The second has to meet increasingly stringent fuel-economy regulations and electric-vehicle mandates.

Loading pricing on hot vehicles while losing money on the less desirable is becoming a ubiquitous yet dangerous practice.


https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a22511439/how-the-dollar100000-pickup-came-to-be/

 

[SubLGT]

Originally Posted by CKN
Individuals prefer their truck fully optioned-since they are now the family car.


I agree with that!

Quote
Although the pickup market remains overwhelmingly dominated by male buyers, the number of women who registered full-sized pickups increased 67 percent from 2008 to 2016 (reaching more than 470,000 trucks in 2016), based on data from IHS Markit. "Family trucks are 40 to 50 percent of our mix," says David Elshoff, Ram brand spokesman. In the industry, a family truck is one with four full-sized doors in a midlevel or higher trim.

Additional seating has been a trend over the last 10 years, and those bigger cabs mean more space for adults as well as kids, says Jen Stockburger, director of operations at Consumer Reports' Auto Test Center in Connecticut. "In our tests, crew-cab pickups typically offer generous rear-seat room to install child seats," she says.

But the space needed for those seats means a trade-off in the size of the pickup beds. Twenty years ago, the Ford F-150's most popular combination was a regular cab with an 8-foot bed, according to Mel Yu, CR's automotive analyst. Today the cabs are a lot bigger and the beds are smaller. Consumers don't seem to mind: General Motors says the most popular combo now for the Chevrolet Silverado 1500 is a crew cab with a 5-foot-8-inch bed, the shortest available.


https://www.consumerreports.org/pickup-trucks/are-pickup-trucks-becoming-the-new-family-car/

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by kawie_guy
Originally Posted by CKN
Originally Posted by 02SE
Originally Posted by kawie_guy


Easy for you to say. You live in Commifornia and drive three cars.
I need a truck for work, and I need a truck to play. Can't do any of that with a car, or else I'd have one.
Now that trucks have become the new, trendy vehicle for folks who just use them to get a gallon of milk on Saturday, people think they need to be like a Rolls Royce, which keeps driving the cost up.
Never in my life have I needed a heated steering wheel, or 360° cameras on any of my trucks. I'd rather see the makers ditch all that sissy [censored] and start making trucks tougher and more reliable for folks like me who actually use a truck like a truck.


There were at least five different trim packages available for the truck I currently own. From basic to loaded. If the loaded trucks didn't sell, they wouldn't build them.


Individuals prefer their truck fully optioned-since they are now the family car.


Exactly my point. Quit buying trucks as a family car. Buy a family car as a family car. Your insurance will be cheaper, and you'll spend a lot less on fuel too. Demand for trucks will also drop, making them more affordable for people who have to have them.





With a two car family, having the pickup with a crew cab is essential to pick up the kids or whatever. It's a popular choice across America as many will decide to have a pickup as the second vehicle.

 

[SubLGT]

Expensive pickups and SUVs are very popular.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/automobiles/wheels/luxury-trucks-suv.html

Quote
Mr. Victorian, a retired Michigan state trooper, bought a Raptor version of the Ford F-150....With all those options, the sticker price came to about $80,000. "Man, this truck is so slick," Mr. Victorian said. "I stop at a light and people give me the thumbs up and take pictures of it ".

Even upscale buyers who long favored Lexus, Cadillac, Jaguar and the German luxury brands are gravitating to trucks and SUVs. "We are seeing it," said Tom Libby, an auto industry analyst at the research firm IHS Markit. "There is movement from luxury cars to luxury trucks."

With demand for cars shriveling, the Detroit three and even some foreign manufacturers acknowledge they are now losing money on many of the cars they sell. But a $60,000 truck can generate tens of thousands of dollars in operating profit.

At a recent investor conference, G.M. outlined a plan to produce more of the pricey Denali versions of GMC S.U.V.s and trucks. The company showed data indicating that the Denali line had an average sale price of $56,000 — more than the average price of a BMW, a Mercedes-Benz or an Audi. "This thing," G.M.'s president, Dan Ammann, said of the Denali line, "is a money machine."

And the priciest S.U.V.s and trucks are selling fastest. The high-end Lariat, King Ranch and Raptor models make up more than half of all F-150 sales, up from one-third a few years ago. Denali editions account for 29 percent of GMC's sales, up from 21 percent.

Wes Lutz, owner of a Chrysler-Dodge-Jeep dealership in Jackson, Mich., said he was surprised at the way customers were snapping up the most expensive models on his lot. This month, he had two Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawks.... each with a sticker price of $93,000. "They won't be here more than a few weeks," he said. "It's incredible. We never used to play in that price range."

Out in Tacoma, Wash., Gary Gilchrist sees the trend just about every week at his GMC dealership. "We've been taking in Lexuses on trade-ins, BMWs," he said. This month, he said, a customer turned in a 2012 BMW 550i and bought a $71,000 GMC Sierra Denali pickup. "People used to want German cars for the image factor," Mr. Gilchrist said. "Now, if you have a Denali, you get that. People turn their heads to look."

 

[JeffKeryk]

Yep, cars are expensive. The 2013 Lexus GS350 F Sport we bought earlier this year probably stickered for the better part of $60K
The car is perfect; I paid $22,300 (as I recall) and it is a Lexus CPO. It was a dealer service loaner and then owned by a dealer exec.
That's a heck of a lotta depreciation, if ya ask me.

No room for it in the garage; it sits outside in this horrible CA Silicon Valley winter weather.
You can see it next to the white car.

Man I hate it here, with all the opportunity. Heck, we are only the 5th largest economy in the world...
Basically, we subsidize much of the country with our tax base.
You're welcome.

 

[kawie_guy]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk

Basically, we subsidize much of the country with our tax base.




How so?

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by kawie_guy
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk

Basically, we subsidize much of the country with our tax base.




How so?





As the 5th biggest economy in the world, our Federal tax base is huge. We only get a portion of that (85% perhaps?). The rest goes to states who pay little in the way of Federal taxes.

 

[kawie_guy]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by kawie_guy
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk

Basically, we subsidize much of the country with our tax base.




How so?





As the 5th biggest economy in the world, our Federal tax base is huge. We only get a portion of that (85% perhaps?). The rest goes to states who pay little in the way of Federal taxes.



Pretty sure my home state would do just fine without you. But maybe some other blue states without a Silicon Valley and a Hollywood need you to keep working. I'm sure they thank you.

And if Cali has such opportunity, then why are 12 of the 31 families in my neighborhood from Cali? Apparently, your nice weather wasn't enough to keep them there.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by kawie_guy
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by kawie_guy
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk

Basically, we subsidize much of the country with our tax base.




How so?





As the 5th biggest economy in the world, our Federal tax base is huge. We only get a portion of that (85% perhaps?). The rest goes to states who pay little in the way of Federal taxes.



Pretty sure my home state would do just fine without you. But maybe some other blue states without a Silicon Valley and a Hollywood need you to keep working. I'm sure they thank you.

And if Cali has such opportunity, then why are 12 of the 31 families in my neighborhood from Cali?

You sound like such a nice guy.
By the way, I prefer bleeding heart libtard.
You might want to do a little checking on states that take more than they contribute, because the numbers do not support your post.
Facts matter.

You might wanna ask your neighbors why they moved; I cannot speak for them.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by kawie_guy
Originally Posted by CKN
Originally Posted by 02SE
Originally Posted by kawie_guy


Easy for you to say. You live in Commifornia and drive three cars.
I need a truck for work, and I need a truck to play. Can't do any of that with a car, or else I'd have one.
Now that trucks have become the new, trendy vehicle for folks who just use them to get a gallon of milk on Saturday, people think they need to be like a Rolls Royce, which keeps driving the cost up.
Never in my life have I needed a heated steering wheel, or 360° cameras on any of my trucks. I'd rather see the makers ditch all that sissy [censored] and start making trucks tougher and more reliable for folks like me who actually use a truck like a truck.


There were at least five different trim packages available for the truck I currently own. From basic to loaded. If the loaded trucks didn't sell, they wouldn't build them.


Individuals prefer their truck fully optioned-since they are now the family car.


Exactly my point. Quit buying trucks as a family car. Buy a family car as a family car. Your insurance will be cheaper, and you'll spend a lot less on fuel too. Demand for trucks will also drop, making them more affordable for people who have to have them.



What qualifies you to tell others how to live?

 

[4WD]

.

 

[kawie_guy]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk

You sound like such a nice guy.
By the way, I prefer bleeding heart libtard.
You might want to do a little checking on states that take more than they contribute, because the numbers do not support your post.
Facts matter.

You might wanna ask your neighbors why they moved; I cannot speak for them.



I am a nice guy. I just don't buy into the whole California savior theory. And neither does a lot of your former residents. There's a reason why people are moving away from your utopia in droves. I welcome them (so long as they don't try turning Utah into a East California).
And I didn't give any numbers. I just said my state is doing fine without Cali. In fact, we have a surplus here. We are not in debt. Check it out if you want numbers.

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted by kawie_guy
Originally Posted by CKN
Originally Posted by kawie_guy
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Why so many insist on making it their business how other spend their money? Who cares what others can or cannot afford? Market is the way it is. If some are upset because they cannot get their favorite truck or SUV cheap anymore, well suck it up. That's what happens when something becomes trendy. Or move on to something that is not trendy anymore, like sedans.



Easy for you to say. You live in Commifornia and drive three cars.
I need a truck for work, and I need a truck to play. Can't do any of that with a car, or else I'd have one.
Now that trucks have become the new, trendy vehicle for folks who just use them to get a gallon of milk on Saturday, people think they need to be like a Rolls Royce, which keeps driving the cost up.
Never in my life have I needed a heated steering wheel, or 360° cameras on any of my trucks. I'd rather see the makers ditch all that sissy [censored] and start making trucks tougher and more reliable for folks like me who actually use a truck like a truck.


I don't get these "immature swipes" at California. While I'm glad I left-if you own a house in a half decent neighborhood-you are a millionaire-maybe people are jealous of that aspect.


I'm not jealous of anybody living in that awful place. And if I'm immature for expressing the fact that it's a socialist state full of people trying to leave it, then so be it. There's getting to be more Californians in Utah than Utahns. Same thing happening in Montana, Colorado, and Arizona.
We don't hate your home state, we just don't like it very much!

Btw, was your pic of the white truck at the Eagle Mountain Chevron?

No-a Chevron in Provo.

 

[kawie_guy]

Originally Posted by 02SE



What qualifies you to tell others how to live?


Probably came off like that, but all I was getting at was why trucks carry $80,000 price tags nowadays, and why car companies aren't making cars anymore. It would do many folks well to buy cars and live within their means. It's not a mandate, just an observation. smile

 

[pitzel]

Vehicles are lasting longer than ever, so I don't think the initial up-front cost is a big problem. A big issue is that while most new cars are built to run 200-300k miles, if not more, the manufacturers themselves aren't interested in offering sustainment in terms of reasonably priced parts for that long. And a lot of the electronics, especially "infotainment" becomes rapidly obsolete even to the point where it can't maintain its "nameplate" functionality, ie: navigation updates cease to be available, 4G becomes obsolete as a standard as cell carriers move on, etc. They want a 5-10 year sustainment cycle, but want people to pay for the vehicles as though they're going to last 20-30 years. Also a lot of the 'infotainment' is clearly excessive, and almost none of it is open standards based.

Also when's the last time you've heard of a manufacturer offer an in-service update for an existing vehicle, when a new technology comes out to increase fuel efficiency, regulations change, or in-service engineering determines that certain components can be up-rated (or down-rated if they're prone to failure)? Pretty much, "never". In the aircraft world, its pretty routine for manufacturers to offer upgrade kits to engines to save a percent or two of fuel, which easily pays for the kit and provides additional value to the operator. With vehicles, if you have a vehicle older than 10 years old and take it for dealer service, you're almost certainly to be harassed by salesmen into buying a new one, and 15 years later, the dealer might even have to order after-market parts or just to accomplish repairs.

For example, the 'fad' in the 2000s was to deliberately run engines richer in order to reduce NOx emissions. The entire nation was subjected to rules that, at best, should have only required a slightly different ECU tune in certain cities. Perhaps geofenced by GPS or just mandated of dealers local to the area. If the President succeeds at rolling back such regulations, I'd like to see the manufacturers offer to remove those fuel wasting and harmful ECU tunes.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by kawie_guy
Originally Posted by 02SE



What qualifies you to tell others how to live?


Probably came off like that, but all I was getting at was why trucks carry $80,000 price tags nowadays, and why car companies aren't making cars anymore. It would do many folks well to buy cars and live within their means. It's not a mandate, just an observation.

Okay. My truck had an MSRP close to that. It has a "glitter and glam" package (as another member refers to loaded trucks as) and the only reason we bought it, is to tow the toy hauler. But the heated and cooled leather seats and heated steering wheel, and good sound system, are nice on the drive to and from our choice of playground.

I agree living within your means is great advice, and we do so.

 

[kawie_guy]

Originally Posted by 02SE


Okay. My truck had an MSRP close to that. It has a "glitter and glam" package (as another member refers to loaded trucks as) and the only reason we bought it, is to tow the toy hauler. But the heated and cooled leather seats and heated steering wheel, and good sound system, are nice on the drive to and from our choice of playground.

I agree living within your means is great advice, and we do so.



Well at least you're using your truck for a purpose only a truck can do.
Are you financing, or buy it outright? Just curious.

 

[hpb]

New cars are more affordable than ever, even here, let alone in the US. We WISH we paid prices as low as you guys!

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by kawie_guy
Originally Posted by 02SE


Okay. My truck had an MSRP close to that. It has a "glitter and glam" package (as another member refers to loaded trucks as) and the only reason we bought it, is to tow the toy hauler. But the heated and cooled leather seats and heated steering wheel, and good sound system, are nice on the drive to and from our choice of playground.

I agree living within your means is great advice, and we do so.



Well at least you're using your truck for a purpose only a truck can do.
Are you financing, or buy it outright? Just curious.


That's a question I normally wouldn't answer, but I'll just skip the details.

It's a purchase through my consulting business, which I set up to pursue my/our hobby. I take full advantage of the tax laws.