Amsoil's response

[Pablo]

POPS - The stuff you mention:

a) doesn't seem directly related to do with my point/diatribe
b) could apply to all oil companies

[ November 22, 2002, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]

 

[dragboat]

quote:

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Originally posted by Pablo:
POPS - The stuff you write about:

a) has NOTHING to do with my point
b) applies to all oil companies, why are you singling out one?

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Don't you think his post has something to do with the fact this is a AMSOIL thread and has some testing procedure issues ?

[ November 22, 2002, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

 

[mdv]

The mere fact that people debate Amsoil so much says to me that it's a quality oil and is constantly being measured against others. Why else would there be so many heated discussions if the oil wasn't worthy of them. If the oil was crap, it wouldn't be around and certainly wouldn't be discussed so much. I don't see many posts debating the relative merits of Slick 50 and the other additives, etc...

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

quote:

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Originally posted by mdv:
The mere fact that people debate Amsoil so much says to me that it's a quality oil and is constantly being measured against others. Why else would there be so many heated discussions if the oil wasn't worthy of them. If the oil was crap, it wouldn't be around and certainly wouldn't be discussed so much..

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So are you implying that since Schaeffers or mobil or maybe synergen or penzoil isn't discussed much in comparison that it isn't a quality oil? Or maybe not as good? Or is it that amsoil is discussed more because maybe there is alot of mis information out there provided by alot of uneducated amsoil salesmen(no reference to the local guys here) and many have questions on some of the advertising tactics which has more than once caused issues?

It's kinda like this, the board has been extremely well balanced about oils in general now all of a sudden I'm seeing a lot of mention on amsoil this and that and how it's TD#s are superiour over all these other oils and with all this TD info flying around, poor guys that have no clue on basic fundimental lubrication priciples are being baffled with a lot of frivoulis information as to how other oils burn off but not theirs and because it can stand up to a few more degrees of temp that any other oil that cannot must burn off but yet an engine will never produce that amount of temp therefore will not burn off either in real life application.

Point is, Like a millionare, just how much money does he have to have to be satisfied he's rich, as at what temp range does an oil have to meet to be qualified as not going to burn off? Just because an oil has SOME higher numbers on a tech data sheet does not make it a better or worse oil, nor does the amount of debate share the same results.

 

[westex39]

I know there are several that do not like Amsoil for one reason or the other. that's your right. But why do you want to make such an issue out of it? If you don't like the Amsoil products and their way of doing business than don't buy their products. There are plenty of folks that do use their products and are perfectly happy with the results they have gotten. So enough already. Use what you want. I'm am happy that you are satisfied with what you are using.

 

[Pablo]

Please let me try and lighten the situation up a bit. I feel somewhat responsible in various ways...for binding the discussion up. Please let's lighten up

First let me agree with Bob and many, many others. There have been crappy products with great marketing and great products with marketing that couldn't sell water for free in the Sahara. My point is: there may or may not be any correlation between real quality and the way the product is advertised.

I came here to look, listen and stimulate the conversations about lubricants. Bob allowed it. I need to abide by the rules as we all must.

Amsoil does weird things. I have zero to no control over some of the stuff. Some stuff is published on data sheets and doesn't go on the web site (shear vis and the IIIF consumption come to mind) Why is it like this? Heck, I DON'T KNOW. Does this mean it's good or bad - I don't think it's automatically BAD relative to other oil co.'s

Listen: I stand ready to be severely whacked if I start posting BS data, or blatant ads.

I will not refrain from lively oil/lube discussions!!

And I think I can correct folks that are just incorrect - or politely ask for data as other should do to me.

Have a great weekend. I need to put new rear pads on the wife's 855 - third try - the pads I bought are defective (as acknowledged by the MFR/seller).....

 

[dragboat]

Pablo,

An excellent post and I personally thank you!

You have just set a presidence for others to follow IMO. Hang in there,,you sell and use a good oil.

 

[Tommy]

quote:

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So are you implying that since Schaeffers or mobil or maybe synergen or penzoil isn't discussed much in comparison that it isn't a quality oil?

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That's a leap Bob.

quote:

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It's kinda like this, the board has been extremely well balanced about oils in general now all of a sudden I'm seeing a lot of mention on amsoil this and that and how it's TD#s are superiour over all these other oils and with all this TD info flying around, poor guys that have no clue on basic fundimental lubrication priciples are being baffled with a lot of frivoulis information as to how other oils burn off but not theirs and because it can stand up to a few more degrees of temp that any other oil that cannot must burn off but yet an engine will never produce that amount of temp therefore will not burn off either in real life application.

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First of all, what ae TD's?

Second, it really is too bad that you consider the NOACK test to be frivolous - it was not Amsoil that came up with that standard, and yes it is a standard. You are missing the point by saying that an oil does not see these kind of temperatures in an engine - even if this was true, it wouldn't matter as is is still a good way to compare one aspect of an oil's performance against that of another. Do the API and ACEA find this NOACK test to be frivilous? Certainly not. Could it be that you have an innate ability to see things when it comes to oil that all these chemical engineers and scientists cannot?

 

[buster]

I agree, thes tests are the only way they can compare there oils. They do mean something. I have a feeling some are loyal to a brand and don't want to hear if it was beat in a test. You can't go wrong with either oil, M1 or Amsoil. There has to be some benchmark test. Take it for what it is I guess?? I more faith in API tests, and chemical engineers then people on the internet posting tests from there garages.

[ November 22, 2002, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Tommy,

"First of all, what ae TD's?"

TECHNICAL DATA SHEETS presented by companies to demonstrate the basic parameters in which an oil or lubricant meets and commonly used to compare in the lubricant industry if an oil meets or exceeds a given spec by a manufacture or comparison of another oil."

"Second, it really is too bad that you consider the NOACK test to be frivolous "

Never said that, and obviously you are mis interpreting my comments as many do tech data sheets. Let me say it in another way... If your engine doesn't get any hotter than 190 degs but in maybe the heat zone in the ring area which an oil is only there for an extremely short time is maybe 350*deg's, and you have an oil that handles 445*'s verses another oil that does 490*'s, does it really matter? both are well over any temps used in a engine therefore it becomes a mute point as to how high the noack is if it is being used in a less demanding environment. Point is, just how dang high do you need for a flash point to exceed before you have accomplished the fact it will work in the engine without burn-off? Does that explain it so the picture has a little more clarity? No, I didn't say the astm#'s have no value just that a lot of you look at the astm #'s and have this uncanny way of saying, yep, that oil is much better than the other based on a few #'s because as we ALL KNOW, most every TD sheet available to the public is very LIMITED to ALL the TECHNICAL astm tests. So, as many companies like to do, take just a few little excerpts out of the limited #'s, and blow their horn on just that.

busterThere has to be some benchmark test. Take it for what it is I guess?? I more faith in API tests, and chemical engineers then people on the internet posting tests from there garages.

That has was a hit below the belt!, I think you like tommy are not seeing the whole picture.. Fact is, If comparison is what you want, get ALL THE #'s FOR ALL OF THE ASTM TEST DATA and COMPARE ALL NOT JUST A FEW #'s to start with. Oh yeah, there is more ASTM TESTS than just a couple that most post.. Get all the #'s together, get oil analysis together then lets talk about doing a real comparison. With only partial information about the tests, that's like hearing one side of a story where someone said you did it and the judge never hears your side therefore not ever getting the WHOLE STORY. Hows that for judging oil? BTW, FWIW, I have never stated amsoil or mobil are bad, just that the use of information on td sheets are nothing more than a starting point to looking at an oil, but ultimately, oil analysis will tell the WHOLE STORY where no one can just by the lack of info you have available.

 

[buster]

I didnt mean to come across as arogant bc I said I trust chemical engineers over others. I believe the people on this site are very valuable in the sense that they provide REAL world tests and have no biases. My point was generally about benchmarks and that someone had to create them....and lets face it, the internet has tons of garbage information just as companies do. You just have to be careful. Everyone on this website seems very knowledgable and trustworth.

[ November 22, 2002, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[ex_MGB]

The only benchmark test that really matters is putting the oil in your car and seeing how well it works. Everything else, in the final analysis, is merely anecdotal.

I think all scientific theory is baloney, only experimentation has validity.

 

[satterfi]

buster,

I'm a chemical engineer. Don't follow my advice. I don't, why should you?

 

[RobZ71LM7]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:

2) Used samples of Mobil 1, 5w-30/10w-30 tested by Blackstone Labs show FP's ranging from 395F-410F. I went back through the oil analysis section and found about 10 of these. I did not include the sample that showed excessive fuel dilution and a very low flashpoint.

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I hope you don't mean mine b/c my Mobil 1 had a 370* flashpoint and no fuel dilution. Fuel content was less than .5% which is the smallest value blackstone will list.

[ November 22, 2002, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: RobZ71LM7 ]

 

[buster]

What I find amazing are the results people are seeing with M1 SS. I bought into the Amsoil hype, a great oil, but now realize M1 is a more cost effective choice. The fact that AMS benchmark tests dont always apply to every engine etc., tells me they are too generalized. With the exception of Series 2000 0w-30, M1 SS is on par with any Amsoil oil based on this site. I have to give the people on this site credit. I'm now better informed on the over inflated or hyped world of Oil numbers! I really think Bertolli's Extra Virgin Olive Oil will beat anything! With a garlic additive to clean your engine.

 

[Tommy]

quote:

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I think you like tommy are not seeing the whole picture..

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Bob - please show me where I make a claim that Amsoil is the best because it turns out low NOACK numbers. I simply believe that the NOACK test has merit.

One of the reasons, in my opinion, that they choose to run this test at the temperature they do is to obtain results quickly. The other reason is that there ARE areas in an engine that do see high temperatures. (probably higher than the values you posted)

The volatility rate of an oil might also be tied directly to the formation of deposits (or lack thereof)in an engine - this is not something you will see in oil analysis.

I know of a case, for example, where Amsoil 15W40 was used at length in a large Waukesha natural gas engine - when Waukesha was consulted on this they nearly flipped as they specify low-ash oil. In any case, it was shown over time that the Amsoil 15W40 did not cause any abnormal or excessive deposit formation. (as was predicted by Waukesha)

 

[mdv]

quote:

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Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:

quote:

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Originally posted by mdv:
The mere fact that people debate Amsoil so much says to me that it's a quality oil and is constantly being measured against others. Why else would there be so many heated discussions if the oil wasn't worthy of them. If the oil was crap, it wouldn't be around and certainly wouldn't be discussed so much..

---

So are you implying that since Schaeffers or mobil or maybe synergen or penzoil isn't discussed much in comparison that it isn't a quality oil? Or maybe not as good? Or is it that amsoil is discussed more because maybe there is alot of mis information out there provided by alot of uneducated amsoil salesmen(no reference to the local guys here) and many have questions on some of the advertising tactics which has more than once caused issues?

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Wow, this thread sure took off.

No, Bob, I wasn't implying that the others you mentioned weren't a quality oil at all. I was only pointing out that I find it interesting that people tend to look at Amsoil as the favorite whipping boy. If it wasn't good enough to stand up to a rational debate about the relative merits between it and other brands I would think it wouldn't be mentioned as much. People would ask "what about Amsoil" and the others would just laugh and say "don't put that crap in your engine, all that company is is a bunch of charts on a website."

I agree that arguing over whether or not an oil has a flashpoint of 455 or 435 is academic. I personally only care about how the oil actually performs in my car, not what a sheet of paper or an API stamp says. Of the many used analysis reports on this forum, I believe Amsoil has proven that it is not just all bark and no bite. The companies marketing practices aside, you cannot deny that it deserves it's place aside the others as a top tier product.

[ November 22, 2002, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: mdv ]

 

[buster]

Yep, Amsoil is great oil, maybe the best out there. Like I said, at least they do compare there oil to others.

 

[dragboat]

In theory the garlic should keep the Goblins away.

If you use that and see trace amounts of Vampire in your anaylis it will show theories are meaningless or one should switch to a oil with silver,,wood and garlic,holy water as a formulation a multi viscosity of a different kind

 

[OneQuartLow]

quote:

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Originally posted by dragboat:
In theory the garlic should keep the Goblins away.

If you use that and see trace amounts of Vampire in your anaylis it will show theories are meaningless or one should switch to a oil with silver,,wood and garlic,holy water as a formulation a multi viscosity of a different kind

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ROFLMAO.

You just gave me a coughing fit darnit!