98 Volvo V70 T5: Rethinking Oil Selection

[2James1]

The Mobil 1 5w-30HM should definately have considerably lesss consumption that the M1 0-30. You may also want to strongly consider the Mobil 1 10w-30HM it is a very stout oil.

 

[addyguy]

I think you made a good call on a thicker oil. As mentioned, Castrol Syntec 0W-30 would be my choice or M1 0W-40 for this engine.

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: sleddriver

In summary, it looks like the sled likes a bit thicker oil in this stage of her life. Less blow-by, the oil stays cleaner, mpg delta not noticeable, compression may increase with a thicker oil though. So I don't need a 50, nor even a 40, but I do need a thick 30. What say you all?

Sleddriver, I think your experience is a good case study why the current fashion to thinner oils requires prudence with some older engine designs, and some European families in particular. Thin is not "in" for certain engine designs, this being one of them. The bearing, valvetrain, and ringpack architecture contemplated by the engine designers (and often quite a few other parameters including gallery mapping and pump clearances) sometimes dictate other choices. The Volvo modular family (white block) is a case in point. Even though it is still in production, this is a design first conceived in the 1980's. Even in NA form, the engine outputs approximately 70hp/L, which is quite respectable. In the turbos, such as yours, outputs can reach 120hp/L. The original main bearing journals and ring pack were engineered around a heavier 30 or 40 weight oil. While more recent Honda and other engines are now built for very light weights, this Volvo engine family simply is not. Extreme efficiency was not a prime design goal - durability and mechanical robustness were. If you review its original specifications from the early '90s, the recommendations trend towards a 40 in moderately hotter climates, with never less than a 30 in any climate. By the late '90s (1999 to be exact), to better comply with CAFE, Volvo undertook a major revision of the ringpack to better accommodate the use of lighter 5w-30 oils. To my knowledge, there have only been very minor revisions to the bearing architecture in this engine, but they can safely and efficiently tolerate a 30 weight oil both at main bearing journals and in valve train under most street conditions. Your experience with significant consumption with a lighter weight is common, and shared by legions of other white block owners prior to '99. There is nothing new about these findings. Nor is it confined to "high-mileage" situations with them. Your conclusion that the engine performs optimally on a heavier 30 is spot on. Many pre-'99 turbo owners use either that, or tip into a 40. More than than a heavy 30 is usually not necessary except at the extreme end of the turbo engine range (Rs and modified track engines), and issues of turbo spool up become more pronounced with such oils, affecting overall performance. There is a good reason enthusiast Volvo owners who track like oils such as GC and M1 0w-40. For the post-'99 engines, good results on a slightly lighter 30 weight are typical, and 5w-30 is the most popular choice for most of them -- as Volvo intended. The white block is more tolerant of ambients than most, and even in a place like Texas, you should be able to stay in the above ranges. One lubrication fault that Volvo was guilty of here in N. America was laxity in specifying proper test sequence approvals, particularly as to the turbos. As a result, the field practice tended towards the long-OCI use of "starburst" conventional oils in turbos, which has proven a mistake. There are plenty of dirty and sludged dealer-serviced white blocks to show for it. For a turbo, an A3 synthetic is best for OCIs exceeding 5k miles. As to particular oils in this engine, I have seen and had good results with the above two, with T6, and with M1 5 and 10w-30. The best consumption results have been with T6 and GC. PP has spiked consumption in every white block we've put it in, but the one UOA I was shown was very good nevertheless. GC is an older formula now and can be hard to find. So in 2012, if I were to pick one oil for your T5 that you should be happy with, it would be M1 0w-40. Go to a NAPA with an AAA discount and I think it is around $5.50/qt. ps: 182k is not much for that engine.

 

[JOD]

I don't think it's the age of the car, or the bearing tolerances--I think it's just due to the oil temps. For the same reason I said the guy with the ultra-short tripper NA whiteblock is good with 0W20, this engine driven on the highway needs a thicker oil. The oil just gets really hot in the high-boost turbos. While I think an A3-rated oil is a good idea, you could always try the M1 5W30EP you have, since it's not far off and it should be fairly shear-stable. One other oil you may want to look for if you have any Chevron dealers nearby around is Delo 400 0W30. I think the hths is in the 3.5 range and noack was low. The specs on it are great, super high VI, and it's cheap....if you can find it.

 

[Volvohead]

Sleddriver, I forgot because we stopped using it some time ago, but another oil that we also had very good results with in this engine was Schaeffers Supreme 7000, but only at more moderate OCIs. I would have reservations taking it much past 5k in a higher pressure turbo without a confirming UOA. It looked great in the low pressure and NA versions as far out as 7,500, though. This is not a "corner store" oil for most, however, and the formulation may have changed. It appears very underrated considering the nice results we got with it.

 

[bigjl]

Volvo T5 is very popular with Traffic Police in the UK. I would suspect they will be running a full synth A5/B5 oil. And I would be surprised if they didn't use Castrol Magnatec as that is what Volvo advise in the owners manual. The 5w30 A5/B5 is the current spec. Not sure how ot related to a '98. The Police retire them at or around 150k miles or three years. And they have plenty life left in them. After you fit some "upgrades" to the interior such as some nice leather seats!

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: edhackett

The oil temperature in the bearings runs higher than the bulk temperature. Shannow has posted data that shows 40-45C higher. Ed

Ed, I've seen similar data to this elsewhere as well. Oil temperatures are not uniform across the engine, and the thermal variances are more sharply dynamic across the lubricating system than many realize. There are cooling elements engineered into the systems, or otherwise the sump would eventually reach thermal runaway. Temperature at one end of the gallery is not the same as at the other, or at a main bearing for that matter. I was somewhat oblivious to it myself until an engineer pointed it out to me a number of years back. What heats up that cold oil in part are the furnace points at the journals and in the valve trains. The oil in those regions, I'm told, are flashed up to design temperature extremely quickly. That is why my trepidation meter spikes whenever I hear advice that significantly deviates from the recommended ranges for this engine. Volvo has a lot of engineering and field experience with this engine, and if they could spec a lighter oil, they certainly would. To some extent, they have, which is a good thing.

 

[sleddriver]

I put the unopened 5qrt jug of M1 5W-30 along with the receipt in the car in case I passed by another WM while running errands. Good thing...I dropped in and they had the 10W-30HM in stock, so I swapped it. After comparing many and the cost, I chose this. [email protected]°C = 3.5; A3/B3&B4; VI=149, no on the Honda spec, didn't see NOACK listed. It's 17% thicker (3.5 vs. 3.0 HTHS) than the 0w-30 that's in there. PP's HTHS numbers in these weights were low (3 & 3.1) in comparison, so I ruled them out. No joy on PU, as I didn't see it. I don't plan on dumping the 0W-30 energy-saving oil already in place. Would be a shame to waste it. I'll add whatever the filter holds when I change it and as the level drops over time, I'll top up with 10W-30HM and enter it in the log. I'm in the process of making a table with all the oil data I collected. I'll attempt to post if I can get it looking right. Thanks to everyone who weighed in with suggestions! I appreciate your time.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Good compromise. Glad you have decided on something based on rational thought! Oil has changed a LOT since 1998 when your specs were written. And hot oil is not exclusive to Volvo, many cars use the oil hard. The bit about temp spikes is experienced inside every engine, and is accounted for by the engineers. Turbos definitely add stress but if the car has a typical design the oil is cooled by water and the old school thought may not be applicable anymore. My car runs an average oil temp of 205-210 in just normal driving, and I've seen nearly 300 degrees at the track. Even after 3000 miles with TWO track days the M1 0w-40 still checked out great by UOA. I spent a whole day at Homestead with a Magnum SRT8 owner who was running RP 20w. His car ran flawlessly and had lower oil temps than mine. These engines are factory spec'd for 40w with 50w mentioned by TSB. If M1 0w-40 wasn't such a robust formula and I didn't track the car I would run thinner oil.

 

[Volvohead]

Sleddriver, Let us know how it goes. The 10w-30 will work just fine in it, better than what was just in it, but the consumption will probably be worse than the T6 you were running. FWIW, ignore a slight varnishing in white blocks. The older ones in particular all do that. It's more of a staining than anything else. Don't confuse it with real deposits. But as one other poster mentioned, you've been doing great with this one for over 180k. I'm curious, why are you fixing something that is not broken????

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: JOD

For the same reason I said the guy with the ultra-short tripper NA whiteblock is good with 0W20, this engine driven on the highway needs a thicker oil. The oil just gets really hot in the high-boost turbos.

JOD, Not to go too much OT (as last time someone ran crying and I got a nastygram), but the reason I so strongly disagreed with you with the short-trip gentleman is because the oil at the bearings is going to be flashed up to a hot 20 in the bearing long before the global sump temps catch up. And those bearings are just not built for a 20 at anywhere near temperature. It's also more prone to consume like a pig. And it wasn't his car, but someone else's. You seem to know this engine, so I can't say I disagree with you too much otherwise. You likely know what happens when you tune and modify the blowers (not the case here). In a turbo, the oil gets a severe beating everywhere, not just at the turbo housing. Stock P2 Rs were tearing up the older M1 0w-40 formula (now revised and very stout) in under 3k. There is apparently a couple drops of German ink in their early engineering drawings. It IS an old-school continental design in part. Very few break loose catastrophically because they're so well made (although there was a well-reported one on a new R that had been over-tuned about 6 or 7 years ago on Swedespeed). Most of the abuse stories with white blocks are by dino sludge clogs in the turbos or "death by PPMs", if you know what I mean. While I was very skeptical about them at first, they've turned out to be a very worthy successor to the great reds. The rush to lump them in with 0w-20 Hondas for oil is severely misplaced.

 

[sleddriver]

Originally Posted By: Volvohead

Sleddriver, Let us know how it goes. The 10w-30 will work just fine in it, better than what was just in it, but the consumption will probably be worse than the T6 you were running.

Perhaps. I only tried T6 due to its reputation here on BITOG and the fact that it was a full syn for less than $20 a 5qrt jug at WM. I don't recall any oil consumption issues with 10W-30 in the past, which is mostly what the sled has been fed. Time will tell.

Quote:

FWIW, ignore a slight varnishing in white blocks. The older ones in particular all do that. It's more of a staining than anything else. Don't confuse it with real deposits.

I concur. Frustrating though. I thought perhaps mine was due to 10k OCI's, Tx heat and oil evaporation where the 'mist' was depositing on surfaces not washed. Aluminum is porous though and will stain. I have no signs of sludge at all in the sled.

Quote:

But as one other poster mentioned, you've been doing great with this one for over 180k. I'm curious, why are you fixing something that is not broken????

Reading Haas' article had me challenging my oil paradigm (see my first post in this thread). I'd gotten in the habit of running thicker oil in my 85 SAAB 900T. I'd switched to syn about 165,000mi. It did not have a water cooled turbo bearing, only had 4 cylinders and was a 5spd. Great little mouse motor. The original turbo lasted 205,000 mi though, in Tx heat. With the Volvo however, I backed off of 20W-50 and mostly ran 10W-40 or 10W-30 and mostly syn. After reading Haas, I tried thinner oil, hoping for an increase in fuel economy, which even in Tx is about $3.50/ga currently. Just nuts. . .

 

[sleddriver]

Having oil temp & pressure info would be an advantage. But really no room for the gauges unless I put them on the driver A-frame. JOD removed his OEM radio, but mine works fine. My 85 SAAB had an air-cooled oil cooler, but the sled's is inside the radiator, so it's water cooled. So is the turbo bearing (bushing). I posted the oil info from the owners manual earlier in this thread. It was pretty simple by today's standards. The sled has never been on a track, nor raced. The closest it sees to a track is an in-frequent 80mph run on the local toll roads where the speed limit has recently been raised to 75mph.

 

[sleddriver]

Quote:

The 10w-30 will work just fine in it, better than what was just in it, but the consumption will probably be worse than the T6 you were running.

Note I bought 10w-30HM, which is thicker than their 10w-30 and also meets the A3 rating whereas the former does not. Never realized the differences between them until I looked up the specs. Time will tell how it compares to T6.

 

[Volvohead]

Sounds good. How's the new battery working out for you?

 

[JOD]

Just to through it out there when you're oil shopping, if you see Maxlife 5W30 FULL SYNTHETIC (not the blend), it's also an A3-rated oil. I have no experience using it, but after I sold my R I remember seeing it a couple of different places. Not sure if it was mentioned earlier, but it's another option for an A3-rated oil which is somewhat readily-available. The stuff you have now should work well.

 

[sleddriver]

Originally Posted By: Volvohead

Sounds good. How's the new battery working out for you?

So far, no worries. Thanks. Not sure if the top comes off to check the fluid levels though. I did want to check the specific gravity, but then noticed the 'closed' top so I didn't.

 

[sleddriver]

Originally Posted By: JOD

Just to through it out there when you're oil shopping, if you see Maxlife 5W30 FULL SYNTHETIC (not the blend), it's also an A3-rated oil. I have no experience using it, but after I sold my R I remember seeing it a couple of different places. Not sure if it was mentioned earlier, but it's another option for an A3-rated oil which is somewhat readily-available. The stuff you have now should work well.

Thanks! Now on my mind is tracking down the illusive cause of the P0455 gross evap leak. This one's been a puzzle for quite awhile. I'm also curious to see if once fixed, my mpg improves. Two vac lines in the engine compartment I have yet to replace: (1) the section of vac line that goes to the brake booster to near the battery. Lots of tight space there. It's hard-as-a-rock though. The lower section from the manifold to the connector is new. (2) One of the turbo control valve lines. Too tight for my fingers. Crawling under the car on stands results in a weird, cramped hand angle as well due to the drivers-side engine mount in the way. That hose is hard & fossilized. Don't see how to get to it with my big hands without a lift. Ideas? Plan on having my indy tackle both of these, with the smoke check. Of course, these don't have anything to do with the evap leak, but there may be hoses in the same condition on top of the tank. Still pondering the idea of a DIY smoke machine: metal ga. paint container, some incense, a few fittings & hose, air regulator on the compressor turned down to 4psi and a bright specular light source to see the smoke. The incense would also allow me to use my nose!