5W-20 people - explain this please:

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My 2003 Ford Ranger has the 3.0 liter V6 engine called the Vulcan that's been put in the Ranger (and other Ford vehicles) since sometime in the 1980's. All of a sudden, around 2001, the owner's manual switched from 5W-30 to 5W-20 as the speced oil.
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So? Who says that it needed 5w-30 oil back then?"

THE FORD OWNER'S MANUAL SAID THAT IT WAS NEEDED BACK THEN. AND THAT'S A BIG PART OF MY POINT. THAT AND THE FACT THAT WE SHOULD NOT BLINDLY TRUST THE MANUAL.

"What if I told you that, if you went beyond a certain point, your 5w-30 was a 20 weight due to shearing (something that everyone seems to ignore)?"

I'D REPLY THAT THAT IS ONE REASON WHY I RUN A
5W-30 OIL, BECAUSE IT MIGHT AT SOME POINT IN TIME SHEAR TO A 20 WEIGHT ANYWAY. I'D ALSO QUESTION WHETHER EVERY 30 WEIGHT SHEERS AND WHETHER IT SHEERS PRIOR TO THE TIME THAT I DO MY OIL CHANGES. THEN I'D SUGGEST THAT THE 20 WEIGHTS CAN ALSO SHEAR AT SOME POINT, LEAVING YOU WITH A really THIN OIL, WHICH I DON'T WANT.
 
ehhh, I wouldnt worry about it, and dont get mad...

Whether its true or not, only a few things matter:

-your percieved results, right or wrong, as theyll influence your satisfaction

-your MPG, as that influences your lifecycle cost

-your OCI on whatever oil you choose, as that effects your lifecycle cost

Besides that, who cares? if UOA comes out good, youre comfortable running whichever oil you want... its all good. Hve faith in the chemistry, and be glad that you notice an improvement in pep with your 5w-20 oil. Nothing wrong with it!

JMH
 
These recommendations of different weight oils for the same engine in different parts of the world has to do with the different oil basestock supplies around the world. Grp I basestocks are still predominately used outside of North America (Canada/US) -- and even in Europe. There is comparatively very little Grp II supply of basestocks outside of NA.

A couple of new Asia-Pacific plants that produce GrpII/III’s (and in Europe) have come on stream in the last couple of years, but before that there was virtually no supply of Grp II’s in Asia or Europe. Even then, these Grp II plants can only supply a very small fraction of the base oils needed if areas like Asia wanted to switch from Grp I to II basestocks for their motor oils. To put this in perspective, in 2003 about 75% of the world Grp II supply was in NA, and we just have enough Grp II supplies to meet our demand for motor oils. Some independent producers were worried about the supply of Grp II’s to meet the new GF-4 spec’s, because Grp II’s would basically be required to meet the NOACK volatility requirements and Grp I would basically almost be shut out completely. For the rest of the world, they have to use mostly Grp I’s or synthetics -- no choice. In Japan (2003) 84.4% of the oil basestock supply was Grp I -- 7.4% Grp II.

There is simply no way to make a quality 5w-20 oil from a Grp I that is going to hold up very long in an engine. Without any supply of Grp II hydrocracked oils, the only way to make a good 5w-20 would be to use synthetics -- Grp III’s and up. But then, if a manufacturer spec’s 5w-20 outside NA, they would basically be forcing these people to use synthetics -- and the cost issue comes into play. The average motorist will balk at the cost of synthetics.

Ideally, one wants to use a thinner oil like a 5w-20 or 5w-30 over a 10w40 because of fuel mileage and likely better oil circulation, but the problem is that thinner basestocks don’t hold up as well a thicker ones -- particularly with regard to NOACK volatility, and I’d imagine somewhat with regards to thermal stability. The aromatics in a Grp I break down quickly and the oil losses it lubricity causing more wear. Thinner oils also generally show somewhat more wear. So using a Grp I thinner oil is going to be like a double whammy as far as wear is concerned. One can compensate this somewhat by using higher weight oils that don’t show as much wear and hold out better. If you ‘re using a Grp I oil, you need every edge you can get in better protection. Fuel economy and the relatively very small benefits of thinner oil (few %) are of a distant secondary concern. There also is the issue that in very warm or “tropical” climates like Indonesia and many parts of the world, lighter weight oils probably won’t make as much difference in fuel mileage as in cooler climates. And, if you’re already using much smaller more fuel efficient engines to begin with (rest of world outside US) then a few % gas mileage really doesn’t really hurt that much. Engine protection becomes a more important parameter with Grp I based oils.

The problem is also compounded by the fact that Grp I oils don’t flow at cold temperatures as well as Grp II’s, so to make a 5w-20/30, you have to use thinner basestocks with I’s than if you blended with Grp II’s -- making things even worse.

Were seeing OCI’s of 10,000 miles in a lot of vehicle’s these days, and half that -- 5K for severe service. I think a 5w-20 blended from Grp I oil would be severely stretched to make 5K or much over that. With a Grp II -- no problem. I like this quote that pretty well sums up the performance gap between Grp I/II’s …

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The inherent oxidation stability advantage that Group II stocks have for passing these tests is apparent in today’s engine oils. For example, Cummins and Chevron found that some commercially available engine oils consistently passed the MRV TP-1 after a 400-hour double-length Cummins M-11 test while others failed1 Subsequent analysis showed that the oils that passed were formulated with Group II. The oils that failed were formulated with Group I. A more recent study showed that Group I formulated oils stayed in grade only about a third as long as Group II (125 hours for Group I vs 400 hours for Group II) in heavy-duty engine oils formulated with the same non-optimized general offering package.

Grp II basestocks, because they cost the same as Grp I’s, change the equation. Why not get the benefits of a thinner oil if it protects just as well or better and costs no more. I’d take a Grp II based 5w-30 (or even 5w-20) over any Grp I based oil -- by a country mile.
 
The 3.0 liter Ford Vulcan V6 was first introduced in 1986. Its been put in a number of Ford models. The basic engine itself has never been redesigned, and certainly not in a way to change the clearances and tolerances of its internal moving parts, the ones with oil circulating around them. It has had such things as the intake and exhaust, timing, some sensors, and fuel injectors, tinkered with from time to time, resulting in slight HP and/or torque increases (and sometimes decreases), but the engine ITSELF has never been redesigned. Its long been a bulletproof, proven engine, so Ford didn't mess with it. Besides, by leaving it alone Ford's been able to produce it very cheaply and thereby keep costs down. Nothing was done to the engine, in 2000 or any other year, to alone justify a switch from recommending 5W-30 to recommending 5W-20.
 
Accord2005NJ a year or so from now when you're a grizzled old veteran on BITOG some newbie will start a topic identical to this one. He will use the same arguments that you have with the same belief that he is arguing something new and original.It is part of the circle of life.This is one topic that regularly shows it's self and follows the same script almost word for word.In the grand scheme of things what is recomended in Europe or Germany or wherever is of absolutely no importance except to those who live there.Relax, fill it up with some 20W50 and STP,thumb your nose at the 5W20 users and move on down the road.There are things a whole lot more important to worry about than what our friends across the pond pour in their crankcase.
 
Farrarfan1, - agreed that there are (many) more important things to worry about. I am just enjoying this discussion and I hope no one is upset (too much) about my opposition to 20 weights.

A bit off the topic; I took my sister in law's 2004 Accord for an oil change at a local quick lube. She does not care about oil goes in (despite my strong protests) and ordered $24 dollar special (I thin they use Quaker oil and filters). Anywho, I was not allowed in the mechanic's area (for insurance purposes they say)and I was waiting outside (but was able to see inside thru glass garage doors). So, this 12 year old kid working there (ok a bit older then that) starts pumping the oil in the crancase and keeps chatting with his friend until the oil starts spilling over the engine block!!!!! I went nuts. I mean really nuts.
They cleaned the engine, change was for free and gave us some cupons. And that is exactly why I don't trust anyone with my car.
 
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Originally posted by Gary Allan:
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Your post has good numbers Gary. I just posted at the same time you did.

Original poster makes the assumption that all Honda 2.4L VTEC engines in the world are the same. I still need to see the numbers on this. The butt-dyno results in this thread are indicating that the North American version is indeed a 5W-20 engine. This says that you will be risking damage using a 40 weight oil in it.
 
Roadbuckler, the "new" 2.4 VTEC is the same in the US, Japan, and some European countries. "Risking damage" - I am willing (And I am) betting my warranty that I will not. I am that certain this 20 weight is just b.s.
 
Accord I think it's more a matter of frustration than anger. It's frustrating to watch someone make decisions or take a stand on anything if they are guided solely by their emotions and refuse to take an open minded look at what the "other side" offers in the way of fact based disagreement. Some very knowledgeable folks have given you some information that is contrary to what you believe. There is nothing wrong with really looking at this information and digesting it without summarily dismissing it as wrong because it doesn't fall into lockstep agreement with your opinion.
 
But I am not basing my decisions on emotions. I could not care less emotionaly about any oil. Its just oil. I am basing my argument on facts I stated - not to repeat them again.
 
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Originally posted by Accord2005NJ:
I am that certain this 20 weight is just b.s.

You better hope you aren't wrong. At best nothing will happen except that your hard earned dollars will be spent heating the oil. At worst you will spin a bearing when the oil is cold, or toast a part when the oil is hot from lack of flow volume.

Why don't you just start with 5W-20, then progressively thicken the oil until the power starts to fall off? Then back down the viscosity a touch and call it good. I bet you end up in the 20's with great UOA's.
 
About the Vulcans and duratecs and other Ford engines, after the release of %W-20 the came out with a TSB back dating the use of 5W-20 to 98 ans some before that. My dad had a 5.0 Explorer that never came with 5W-20 ever and it was back dated to 5W-20. The only engine they have other than diesel and the Ford GT I know of is the 4.0 in Explorers and the new body Mustangs. Must use 5W-30 or engine damage can occur. Food for thought on both sides of the argument.
 
If you follow facts you will not have to worry about what someone else in another part of the world is using.

Honest objective thought is not easy. The arguments you put forth are not original, you are going through the process. You may arrive somewhere that you do not think you are going if you are here to learn.
The frustration with your tired argument is that many of us have seen and even argued the same points only to learn it is rationalization for a fear of change.

If you can find a new and convincing argument why 5w20's are death to engines in a bottle I am all ears.
 
Forget butt dyno, forget emotions, forget ALL of it. Does Honda market different engines in Europe, the US. Australia, and Japan, or NOT? What, no one has a clue? Then what ya arguing over?

You folks are all emotional about the oil, and forgetting to look for a reason for the different viscosities called for in each country. Are we talking different engines, or not?

Don't insult the different regions, there MAY be a reason for all this.

Jeez, I hope no one's reading this thread, they'd think only a knucklehead would get involved....

Like ME.
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