5W-20 people - explain this please:

[Auto-Union]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Accord2005NJ:
Auto-Union,

The 20 weight is not available because no one in their right mind would buy it. To give a comparable example, milk and meat which we dring and eat here full of hormons and antibiotics is also NOT available in Europe because people would not buy such garbage. Get it? Euro consumer (like it or not) tends to be a bit more informed and ready to think.
See also the article above, and by the way the guy is talking about REGULAR Honda Engines (not sport versions etc.)

---

So, I'm making oil decisions based on what you think some goof from Europe prefers? Ok, I'm convinced. Tony, unplug the servers, it's over.

Ha ha, I think you give too much credit to the Euro trash. You don't even think all those poor people in Europe would buy US meat if it was 1/2 the price of their "protected" product? I sorta think tariffs have a bit to do with it. American only consume what they do because of stupidity, is that your assertion? That's sick. FTR- I don't eat meat and drink organic milk...and use 20 weight oil. I'm curious what your OCIs are anyway...nah...nevermind, who cares?

 

[Accord2005NJ]

Auto-Union,

It is nice to embrace belittleing when your argument is starting to fail isn't it?

The man is not a "tuner". The man is THE MAN, is Mr. Ichisima and the oil manufacturer is IDEMITSU who makes the oils for Hondas all over the world including in Europe and Japan. This "tuner" is THE MAN in Honda world so before you dismiss him (and as I said he is NOT a tuner)maybe you want to learn from him?

So you can "crack up" and hope that you engine block doesn't experience the same after 200k miles.

Any car these days will run 100k miles on . But to really protect your engine (according to all the evidence we have seen here) you need thicker then 5W-20.

[ May 11, 2006, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: Bio-T ]

 

[sxg6]

this has been covered many times. searching will find countless results to this question.
no good will come from this thread, it will just create an argument between the people who believe in 5w-20, and those who do not belive in it.

my stance: it is truly moronic to think that 5w-20 is 100% because of cafe. ill give you 25% at the most. 5w-20's have proven to protect just as well as other oils in countless uoa's. engineers from multiple different companies trust it to protect their motors and reputations. do you think honda wants to see their engines rebuilt at 200k because they wanted to brag about .5 more mpg? no. there is far too much at stake for them and many other companies.

there is an excellent link floating around which goes into more detail about why 5w-20 will protect motors just fine and it isnt all about cafe. ive been trying to find it for the past 20 minutes and give up. if someone knows what link im talking about, please post it. id like to see it again.

 

[Bill in Utah]

quote:

---

Originally posted by sxg6:
this has been covered many times. searching will find countless results to this question.
no good will come from this thread, it will just create an argument between the people who believe in 5w-20, and those who do not belive in it.

---

Thank you!

Bill

 

[Accord2005NJ]

Euro-Trash? And we wonder why they "love" us all over the world.

That labeling was very, very uncalled for and shows lack of basic civility in communication. What do you know of this man to so quickly label him as Euro-Trash? I am sure that had his statement supported your argument you would not call him trash?

It is also dumb to call this mane Euro Trash because the man is JAPANESE and the last time I checked the islands of Japan were not part of Europe. Then again, I haven't been in Europe in 6-7 months so maybe the continents have shifted in the meantime.

Now that we have covered that, I will again politely direct you to consider the evidence:
1) Same engine gets differen (heavier) oil recommendations in other countries
2) Recommendations do not stop at 30 weight but are extended to 40 weigh for the same enginer
3) Insiders from the Honda circles recommend heavier weight, including Honda OIL OEM manufacturer in Japan
4) 20 weight is available in Japan, YET Honda manual for Accord in Japan says that for "GOLD" protection 10W-30/40 is recommended.

Surely, Japanese cannot be called trash? Or do you just shoot first and think later?

BTW - My OCI is at 5k miles.

 

[Auto-Union]

"THE MAN, is Mr. Ichisima and the oil manufacturer is IDEMITSU who makes the oils for Hondas all over the world including in Europe and Japan"

Umm, how about America? Since he is in the oil SALES business, would it make sense for him to recommend one not stocked in that country, hmm?

You still have not answered my questions. Until you want to have a conversation based on logic and fact, rather than speculation and hersay, I will be moving on.

 

[Accord2005NJ]

SXG6 - I am sure some testing has been done and I am sure Honda decided it is (relatively?) safe to use 5W-20 oil in Honda engines in the US because:

1. Most people trade cars after 100k;
2. Most Hondas are automatics and engines do not get revved up as much as stick shifts (which are predominant in Europe)
3. Most people change oil in the US every 3-5k miles. In Europe they go for 5-8k miles in average

And then there is the issue of acceptable loss. For anyone who blindly trusts any corporation - do I need to remind you of Enron, Worlcom, and others ? Firestone? Ford?

 

[Auto-Union]

How many assumptions can you fit into one thread?

Is this the same guy who recommended 5w-20 for my car, which is stock, btw.


1) I put over 100k on my last car.
2) My car is a manual.
3) recommended oci is 10,000 miles (not kilometers, doh)

You have not explained the lack of evidence of the excess wear.

 

[Accord2005NJ]

Auto-Union,

Idemitsu can be ordered in the US but is not readily available. Exon made a deal with Honda Motors USA to make their oil. Honda did it because it was cheeper to do it here. Idemitsu industries do not have large presence in the US. The interview he gave was for Europe where his product is available. He NEVER recommended IDEMITSU, he just talked about recommended weights. He is NOT a spokesman for Idemitsu so your point is without merit.

20 Weights have yet to prove themselves. The fact that metal is not shedding does not mean that heat is not getting to it. Otherwise, Ferrari America would recommend 20 weight too? And BMW? Merceds? No, they will not. You know why? Becasue Mercedes is expected to last over 200/300k miles. Why take a chance with 20 weight?

 

[Accord2005NJ]

Here is the link about Idemitsu:

http://www.idemitsu-ils.com.sg/products/products.htm

Here is the quote about their clients:

WORLD MAJOR OEM'S CUSTOMERS

Afla-Romeo, Audi, BMW, Citroen, Daihatsu, Daimler-Chrysler, Ferrari, Fiat,
Ford, GM, Honda, Hyundai, Isuzu, Jaguar, Kia, Lotus, Mazda, Mitsubishi,
Nissan, Opel, Peugeot, Porsche, Proton, Renault, Rolls-Royce,
Rover, Saab, Toyota, etc.

 

[Auto-Union]

It really bothers you that Euro manufacters are behind the times, doesn't it?

 

[Bryanccfshr]

5w20

If your car calls for it use it! you are only cheating yourself by running thicker. I know I was convinced that it was better to run thicker, but the performance of a 5w20 in a car that calls for it after running a 5w40 is not possible to ignore.

If you don't want to run it fine, it's a free country and there is no oil viscosity enforcement agency (at this time).

I believe you are missing out on the better technology by being thickheaded however.

 

[Rodbuckler]

I'd like to see some evidence that the Honda engines sold overseas are set up the same as the 5W-20 engines sold in this country. Crack two of them open and take some measurements.

 

[sxg6]

so youre saying honda only cares about how well their cars will hold up until 100k? my 2.5 year old mt civic has been using 0w-20 and 5w-20 for the past 92,000 miles. honda spec's 5k and 10k intervals, not 3-5k. sure, AT honda's will rev lower than mt's, but hondas are naturally high revving motors regardless of transmission.

i guess im gonna need a new engine soon because honda doesnt care about their customers or the reliability of their cars...i have to put blind faith into honda and assume that they care about their customers and want their cars to last a long time. they have never ever given me a reason to think otherwise. they have always built excellent, reliable motors.

 

[Auto-Union]

Idemitsu Racing 4-Cycle Engine Oil 5W-20

(Synthetic)

Formulated Specifically For High Performance Racing Engines

Enhanced Film Strength Provides Excellent Durability and Wear Protection

Special Additives Reduce Carbon Deposits on Piston Rings, Minimizing Compression Loss and Maximizing Power Output

Superior Shear Stability Decreases Viscosity Breakdown, Which Ensures Consistent Quality Performance Over the Life of the Oil

Special Molybdenum Agents Reduce Friction, Boosting Horsepower & Torque

Formulation Exceeds API SM Standards

http://www.idemitsu-usa.com/page_255.htm

 

[Accord2005NJ]

Auto-Union - I don't think we got a better technology. I think we got shafted with this 5W-20 recommend.

Bryan - I am just debating. I could be wrong of course. However, I have yet to understand why we are the only ones getting 20 weight recommend when even in Japan (where 20 is available) Accord manual says 30/40 weight is recommended for optimum (GOLD) protection.

Roadbuckler - it is unrealistic for you to condition your "approval" of my argument withe the requirement that I purchase and crack open two engines. However, common sense (remember that?) tells us that if Honda Accord 2.4 VTEC is sold in US, Europe, Japan with the same specs (HP, torgue etc.) that it is a same...same...same.. engine.

SXG6 - I agree that Honda always made great engines. I do think they care about their product. But I also think they care a lot about their profit, CAFE etc. Lets talk about your engine when it has 200k. As I said, any engine these days can come to 100k miles. My father's 1979 FIAT still runs after 400k kilometars. AND ITS A FIAT (BTW we use 15-40 in that car).

 

[Accord2005NJ]

Auto-Union,

That just proves my argument and counters yours. So, 5W-20 IS (as I said) available in Japan, YET for GOLD (their words not mine) protection of VTEC engines Honda recommends 30/40 weight, while 20 is recommended for "optimum fuel economy."

Game, set, match?

 

[Auto-Union]

ANY Honda would pass CAFE easily without 20 weight oil. Some people make it seem that no mfgs could even hope to be CAFE compliant without it. Why does not every maker jump on the bandwagen? Some are just ahead of the curve in R&D.

"20 Weights have yet to prove themselves. The fact that metal is not shedding does not mean that heat is not getting to it."

That shows a profound lack of understanding.

 

[Accord2005NJ]

Auto-Union,

You have yet explain:

1) Why nowhere else 20 weight is pushed as sole weight even in countries where it is available (i.e. Japan - the birthplace of Honda. Japan - which is much more high tech then we are?! I mean, their cars have e-mails for *** sakes).

2. Why would an insider recommend 15-40 and 10-30 weights

3. Why are 40 weights recommended for the same engine in Europe AND in Japan where 30/40 weights are considered "GOLD" protection.

Why don't you answer point by point if you will please?

 

[Bryanccfshr]

I think it is for sociological/sales reasons that heavier oils are recomended elsewhere. Even Toyota is pressing for 5w20 in certain series of 4 cylinder engines in the US and Japan. The Japanes and the Europeans are very resistant to change, more so than Americans who are technologicaly progressive. No superiority intended but Americans have always been the risk takers but we also reap the benefits of those risks.

That is the only reason that I can think of 5w20 not being recomended in european countries.. It would sit on the shelf. It is the arbitrary ACEA HTHS numbers required for euro car approval. The local shops carry ACEA oils and why should they carry anything elsE?they are in EUROPE. There are probably few ACA 5w20's because the minimum HTHS for the lightest (arbitrary) oil apporved is 2.9

What does that numvber really mean? Nothing other than an oil not carrying an ACEA spec won't be on the local euro walmart shelf