.380 ACP defensive ammo revisited

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How about just skip the 380 and the G42 all together and get a small 9mm(9x19)?
380 does not meet any of the FBI standards. 9mm is a HUGE step up in every way and there are many guns very close to the G42 in size. The Beretta Nano, S&W Shield(without a safety) and the Springfield XDS to name a few are very small and much better then any 380. Buffalo Bore is a boutique manufacture. I don't know of any credible instructor that recommends their ammo in 9mm, 38sp, 40 or 45 let alone 380.

I'm a NRA certified trainer, a member of The Association of Defensive Shooting Instructors and a graduate of I.C.E Combat Focus Shooting/Advanced Pistol Handling , Valhalla Training Center, Thunder Ranch and Blackwater(before it was Xe).
 
If I was going to carry a .380 ACP, I'd use one of these for ammo. The Federal Hydra-Shock is still a good performer, had the most penetration in these test. Consensus is to use a 90~95 a grain bullet to get higher velocity and more bullet expansion. I wouldn't want to be hit by any of these, even in a .380.

Speer Gold Dot .380 ACP 90 gr
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTTuXpFChsA

.380 ACP Winchester Ranger T-Series 95 gr
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxpHOB132ak

Federal .380 ACP 90 gr Hydra-Shok
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ6PgHhNYg0
 
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Any 380 +p would worry me unless the gun was a locked breach design. Most 380's are blowbacks and you might have some issues if there is not enough slide mass and spring resistance there.


Still being relatively new to design intricacies, would you explain the difference? I believe I understand what you're saying, but how would I identify them?


Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Eric, I'm not referring to the Critical Defense. I would place those under the "violent expanding" type bullets that I personally stay away from in .380 as I believe they sacrifice too much penetration in the interest of expansion. Gold Dots, PDX-1's, Golden Sabers etc. are all awesome in larger calibers but cost too much penetration in the .380. JMO.

Here are the Hornady's I am referring to. They are a reloading bullet so they are actually loaded by a number of manufacturers, although this one is actually Hornady.

Hornady Ammo

Here's one of the video tests of one of the loadings of the XTP.

You Tube Link Hornady Test


Thank you for the link. I see the XTP is pretty common, really... I wonder how much it matters on who loads them?


Originally Posted By: bubbatime
I follow modern ballistics closely. In fact I have attended dozens of ballistics workshops and conducted a bunch myself.

In the .380 realm, any of the many XTP loads are super hot right now in .380. Followed by gold dots and hydroshocks. While XTP 's and hydroshocks are considered old technology, they work well within the limitations of the .380.

Buffalo bore has been causing problems in the Glock .380. Loaded too hot and causes the slide to lock back prematurely. Avoid.

As far as Hornady critical defense, it should never, ever, ever, never be loaded in gun that you plan to use for self defense. The stuffs sucks in actual performance. The only thing it has going for it is a large marketing budget and generally good availability when the good stuff isn't available. There isnt a single police dept in the country that issues Hornady Critical Defense. That is what we call a clue.


bubbatime, would you mind better explaining the problems related to the Buffalo Bore ammo and the Glock 42, or maybe post up a link? Also, I know you don't like the Critical Defense line- why is that? Is it just because they are typically light for the caliber and/or don't penetrate well enough? They seem to expand reliably from what little I've seen of them.


Originally Posted By: Gillsy
I bought 50 rounds of HPR .380 at Field and Stream, and I also got 100 rounds in 9MM. They cost around $23 for 50 rounds. I find the price very reasonable versus the competition.
Here's a video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH2eFby2T9E


Thanks for the link! The HPR rounds seem to do well with the super short barrel of the test gun, until shooting through the 4 layers of denim. Maybe they would work better out of the longer Glock 42 barrel?
 
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
https://www.youtube.com/user/tnoutdoors9

This youtube channel has several 380 defensive ammo's tested along with two kinds of FMJ.

Some have better penetration than others and some better expansion than others. Might help you form an opinion. If not...its entertaining at the very least.


Yes, I'm familiar with that channel- definitely some good content. Maybe I should spend some more time looking at other .380 rounds.


Originally Posted By: Chris B.
How about just skip the 380 and the G42 all together and get a small 9mm(9x19)?
380 does not meet any of the FBI standards. 9mm is a HUGE step up in every way and there are many guns very close to the G42 in size. The Beretta Nano, S&W Shield(without a safety) and the Springfield XDS to name a few are very small and much better then any 380. Buffalo Bore is a boutique manufacture. I don't know of any credible instructor that recommends their ammo in 9mm, 38sp, 40 or 45 let alone 380.

I'm a NRA certified trainer, a member of The Association of Defensive Shooting Instructors and a graduate of I.C.E Combat Focus Shooting/Advanced Pistol Handling , Valhalla Training Center, Thunder Ranch and Blackwater(before it was Xe).


Well, we're in agreement here. I share the same thoughts as you, even though I don't have the credentials. Still, this is not for me, and not my decision. I have loaned her my everyday carry pistol- a S&W Shield, and while she is okay with it, she has a hard time carrying a holster and/or concealing the pistol- just her unique physique. She tried all of the compact/subcompact pistols our local store had and found the 42 the most appealing. The only thing I can do is research ammo and come up with a recommendation for her.


Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If I was going to carry a .380 ACP, I'd use one of these for ammo. The Federal Hydra-Shock is still a good performer, had the most penetration in these test. Consensus is to use a 90~95 a grain bullet to get higher velocity and more bullet expansion. I wouldn't want to be hit by any of these, even in a .380.

Speer Gold Dot .380 ACP 90 gr
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTTuXpFChsA

.380 ACP Winchester Ranger T-Series 95 gr
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxpHOB132ak

Federal .380 ACP 90 gr Hydra-Shok
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ6PgHhNYg0


The Gold Dot is looking pretty good really...
 
Many 380's like the Walther PPK and Bersa 380 for instance only have a recoil spring and the mass of the slide to prevent the slide from retracting too soon when pressures are high which can cause damage to the gun or injury to the operator.

Other designs use a locked breach system which you see in guns chambered in the more powerful 9mm(9x19mm instead of the 9x17mm which is the 380acp). Simply put the hotter 9mm would take a massively heavy slide or massively stiff spring to make it work in a blowback system. An overly hot 380 could cause the slide to start reward too soon since the firearm designer did not build the gun for hot ammo.
 
Originally Posted By: The_Eric

One last factor is that all their specs come from actual short barreled defensive pistols- and the accompanying charts show plenty of velocity/energy from super short barrels.


I haven't seen too many .380 pistols with what I would consider a long barrel.
 
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Originally Posted By: cbear
Originally Posted By: The_Eric

One last factor is that all their specs come from actual short barreled defensive pistols- and the accompanying charts show plenty of velocity/energy from super short barrels.


I haven't seen too many .380 pistols with what I would consider a long barrel.


True, but I don't know the length of the test barrel the ammo companies use, which is why I made the remark.
 
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Many 380's like the Walther PPK and Bersa 380 for instance only have a recoil spring and the mass of the slide to prevent the slide from retracting too soon when pressures are high which can cause damage to the gun or injury to the operator.

Other designs use a locked breach system which you see in guns chambered in the more powerful 9mm(9x19mm instead of the 9x17mm which is the 380acp). Simply put the hotter 9mm would take a massively heavy slide or massively stiff spring to make it work in a blowback system. An overly hot 380 could cause the slide to start reward too soon since the firearm designer did not build the gun for hot ammo.


So would the M&P or Glock, whcih have that lug under the barrel be a sign of a locked breach design? Further, if the 42 had that same basic design, would it too be considered locked breach?


edit: Never mind- I took to the WWW and found out the identifying characteristics. Thank you though!
 
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Kahr CM9 is sweet, affordable and about the size of the G42 if not a hair smaller in 9mm no less if you haven't looked at those yet.
 
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Kahr CM9 is sweet, affordable and about the size of the G42 if not a hair smaller in 9mm no less if you haven't looked at those yet.


I thought she did, but I'll make sure she puts it in her hand again.
 
Went looking at pistols today (sans wife- she was a little under the weather) and looked at the CM9 and... ugh- the Kimber Solo Carry. Not "ugh" because it's a bad pistol, but ugh because I'll likely end up paying for it. She looked it up on their website and is at a minimum, interested.

I think a neighbor may have a CM9- I'll have to see if he's willing to loan/rent it out so she can bang around with it some.

On a side note: If you have a Mills Fleet Farm- you should check them out. From what I've seen, they beat ALL the competitors in the area by a fair margin. The example that sticks out in my head the best is the Remington 1911 R1. Most retailers had it for $730.00-$740.00. Mills had it for $689.00. They wanted $730.00 out of the stainless R1, where the others were asking near $800.00....
 
reliability on the Kimber solo is not great if you read around. They are VERY ammo sensitive. And for the price, they should not be. Any defensive carry gun or any gun I trust to protect myself should not be finicky about what you feed it.

If you want an all metal gun...maybe look at the Colt Mustang instead.
 
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Originally Posted By: Robenstein
reliability on the Kimber solo is not great if you read around. They are VERY ammo sensitive. And for the price, they should not be. Any defensive carry gun or any gun I trust to protect myself should not be finicky about what you feed it.

If you want an all metal gun...maybe look at the Colt Mustang instead.



All metal really isn't the objective, though the mustang could easily end up being
considered if she can't find a 9mm that makes her happy.

Thanks for the heads up on the Solo Carry- I agree on both points. Carry guns shouldn't be picky.




Originally Posted By: FastGame
If your wife is thinking Kahr CM9 she should shoot one first. The CM9 is small, recoil & torque is more than 380 and she may not like that. My wife loves shooting her Bersa 380 but doesn't want anything to do with the S&W Shield for the reasons I mention.

Browning is coming out with a new 380 this month http://www.browning.com/products/interactive/firearms/1911-380/

IMO that gun should be in 9mm.


Good point, though I have faith she could handle it- she can take 10 full on 158grn 357 Federal rounds through her LCR before she wusses out, so I'm betting she can handle the Kahr. She shoots my Shield just fine.


On that Browning- Oh yeah! I'm getting a little tingly all of a sudden... Not sure what it is about it, but I WANT ONE!
 
I think I would rather get a commander sized 9mm 1911 than the Browning 380. I don't really like that it is a polymer frame either.
 
Originally Posted By: The_Eric





Originally Posted By: Chris B.
How about just skip the 380 and the G42 all together and get a small 9mm(9x19)?
380 does not meet any of the FBI standards. 9mm is a HUGE step up in every way and there are many guns very close to the G42 in size. The Beretta Nano, S&W Shield(without a safety) and the Springfield XDS to name a few are very small and much better then any 380. Buffalo Bore is a boutique manufacture. I don't know of any credible instructor that recommends their ammo in 9mm, 38sp, 40 or 45 let alone 380.

I'm a NRA certified trainer, a member of The Association of Defensive Shooting Instructors and a graduate of I.C.E Combat Focus Shooting/Advanced Pistol Handling , Valhalla Training Center, Thunder Ranch and Blackwater(before it was Xe).


Well, we're in agreement here. I share the same thoughts as you, even though I don't have the credentials. Still, this is not for me, and not my decision. I have loaned her my everyday carry pistol- a S&W Shield, and while she is okay with it, she has a hard time carrying a holster and/or concealing the pistol- just her unique physique. She tried all of the compact/subcompact pistols our local store had and found the 42 the most appealing. The only thing I can do is research ammo and come up with a recommendation for her.





I see. Well the 380 is much better then having nothing at all and unfortunately carrying a pistol must be comfortable and convenient or it wont get carried and then you wont have it when needed. Go to the Personal Defense Network and read up on it. You could also drop Rob Pincus an email asking him what he thinks. He is one of the top pistol instructors in the USA and knows his stuff. IM me if you want his email.
 
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
I think I would rather get a commander sized 9mm 1911 than the Browning 380. I don't really like that it is a polymer frame either.


Ahhh Robenstein, grasshopper. Polymer is so 3D printer friendly, just think what's coming in the future.
 
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
I think I would rather get a commander sized 9mm 1911 than the Browning 380. I don't really like that it is a polymer frame either.


I have and use Commander and full size 1911's. I would avoid compact models as they are just not reliable. I have never seen one run reliably, ever! Even full size 1911's that run 100% reliable are very rare. I have owned 10 over the years and only have come across one(Dan Wesson Valor full size) that has been 100%. The 2nd Valor I bought is a Commander size and it had one malfunction feeding a Speer Gold Dot. It was on its first and only range trip and I'm not going to pass judgment till I break her in properly. It is new and I have not had a chance to test fire her again just yet.

Below is a link to a very short video Rob Pincus made on 1911's. He is arguably the top pistol instructor in the world and know his stuff. Below that are a couple pictures of my 2 Valors:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P0edDYdqXU







 
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