.380 ACP defensive ammo revisited

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The_Eric

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My wife recently decided that she wants a Glock 42- so I set out to look for round suitable for defensive carry.

I remember a discussion here about .380 defensive ammo and Buffalo Bore 100grn hard cast rounds were widely accepted as the round of choice, due to their ability to penetrate where other lighter expanding rounds wouldn't.

That took me to Buffalo Bore's website to check it out, which took me to youtube to watch some gel test videos... One test got 31" in ballistic gel! That got me thinking about pass through shots... Back to Buffalo Bore's site... Some more looking found they have a 95grn JHP +P round, which should do fairly well I would think. Also found an 80grn +P round loaded with the Barnes X bullet (all copper) which gave great expansion in water jugs.

Their web site claims that they evaluated other .380 ACP rounds and found them lacking (general consensus), so they made these rounds to address the poor performance of the .380. One last factor is that all their specs come from actual short barreled defensive pistols- and the accompanying charts show plenty of velocity/energy from super short barrels.

I haven't found either of these rounds fired into ballistic gel yet, so I am curious of your input. What are your thoughts?
 
My question is, how safe are these +P rounds ? There is no +P standard for 380 so are these overloads ? Are 380 guns tested and approved for overloaded ammo ?
 
I know Buffalo Bore is highly regarded but I haven't researched it much. You will find contradictory schools of thought, some will prefer FMJ's others want expansion. Put me in the expansion camp.

I have found anything loaded with the Hornady 90 gr XTP can be figured on for controlled expansion and better penetration than most due to it's modest expansion characteristics. Multiple gel tests have born this out, so that's what I am currently carrying. I am using Black Hills brand but anything from a reputable manufacturer with the 90 gr XTP should be a good bet.

Not saying there isn't something better, but anything with the 90 gr XTP should at least be a good choice. The other nice thing about the XTP is it has a rather small well tapered nose to the bullet, so it should provide reliable feeding in most weapons as opposed to the huge hollow gaps found in many common self defense rounds that may hang up in some weapons.
 
If there is doubt about a round overpowering your weapon I'd stay away. Generally when someone is hit they are out of the fight. Their priorities change. The 22 is rated as an inferior man stopper but in report after report it is noted that when hit with a 22 the person is in fact out of the fight. The wounded person may not be knocked down and may escape and evade but you now have gained some separation from the immediate danger. If a lighter caliber weapon like the 380 contributes to confidence, accuracy, better concealment and more convenient to carry it's possible that it could be the better choice in the world you live in.

An interview in the 80's by the FBI with a retired hit man revealed that his choice of weapons was a 22 cal auto pistol. Head shots where always a one shot kill and chest/abdomen shots immediately took the victim out of action. Very few victims survived one shot hits to the chest/abdomen even though they may not have died on the spot and almost no one ever survived multiple chest/abdomen shots. The 22 penetrates well and leaves a trail of damage that is difficult for a surgeon to follow even though it's the kind of damage that does not knock the victim to the floor with an overwhelming shock. The victim quietly bleeds to death in the hospital over a longer period of time no matter what the doctors do. The hit man stated that the overwhelming factor in a successful shooting is cool, cold blooded steady accuracy under stress with no flinching and no jerky actions. He stated that if you accomplish this it makes no difference what caliber you use. He also stated that you need time on the range and no matter how proficient you may be you will always need a mentor, instructor or a coach just like a golf pro.
 
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
If there is doubt about a round overpowering your weapon I'd stay away. Generally when someone is hit they are out of the fight. Their priorities change. The 22 is rated as an inferior man stopper but in report after report it is noted that when hit with a 22 the person is in fact out of the fight. The wounded person may not be knocked down and may escape and evade but you now have gained some separation from the immediate danger. If a lighter caliber weapon like the 380 contributes to confidence, accuracy, better concealment and more convenient to carry it's possible that it could be the better choice in the world you live in.

An interview in the 80's by the FBI with a retired hit man revealed that his choice of weapons was a 22 cal auto pistol. Head shots where always a one shot kill and chest/abdomen shots immediately took the victim out of action. Very few victims survived one shot hits to the chest/abdomen even though they may not have died on the spot and almost no one ever survived multiple chest/abdomen shots. The 22 penetrates well and leaves a trail of damage that is difficult for a surgeon to follow even though it's the kind of damage that does not knock the victim to the floor with an overwhelming shock. The victim quietly bleeds to death in the hospital over a longer period of time no matter what the doctors do. The hit man stated that the overwhelming factor in a successful shooting is cool, cold blooded steady accuracy under stress with no flinching and no jerky actions. He stated that if you accomplish this it makes no difference what caliber you use. He also stated that you need time on the range and no matter how proficient you may be you will always need a mentor, instructor or a coach just like a golf pro.






I am a believer in shot placement. However, the .22 is not a notorious fight stopper. I question the wisdom of anyone who carries a .22 when alternatives exist, unless that alternative is a .25ACP. This gentleman carrying .22 by choice for assassination is one thing (pick the time/place of engagement, place shots carefully), but in a fast paced, rapidly evolving defensive scenario, I question the judgement of anyone carrying a .22 when alternatives exist. Head shots with ANYTHING are seldom one shot kills. I saw a guy shot in the head with a 9mm JHP (unknown brand, etc). He certainly died.....after he ripped off a few AK rounds. Can .22 kill? yes. Can it win gunfights? Yes. Does it do it better than .38, 9mm, .357, 10mm, .45, or .380? Not the way to bet. None of this calibers are particularly unmanageable. Particularly 9mm and .380 given a minimum of practice.
BREAK
.380 is marginally OK. Run a good bonded bullet, Gold Dots are nice, and I have never known Hornady to make bad ammo. Generally, the extremes are bad IMO. Extremely light and fast, inconsistent penetration. Extremely heavy and slow, inconsistent expansion. Gimmick bullets are just that. Hornady or Gold Dot IMO. Can't go wrong.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: FastGame
My question is, how safe are these +P rounds ? There is no +P standard for 380 so are these overloads ? Are 380 guns tested and approved for overloaded ammo ?


This is a good question- I too pondered that as when looking at the Glock website, I saw no mention of whether it was +P rated or not. Definitely something I need to look into.

KCJeep- I saw the Critical Defense rounds being tested in gel on Youtube and they did very well. They are also being considered, but I am just trying to find more out on the Buffalo Bore ammo since I haven't seen any gel testing on these two yet.

I know gel testing (following FBI protocols) isn't definitive, but it seems to be the "next best thing" to actual shooting/autopsy data. So while I'm not hanging my hat solely on Youtube gel tests, they do weigh heavily in my mind.
 
Originally Posted By: 95busa
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
If there is doubt about a round overpowering your weapon I'd stay away. Generally when someone is hit they are out of the fight. Their priorities change. The 22 is rated as an inferior man stopper but in report after report it is noted that when hit with a 22 the person is in fact out of the fight. The wounded person may not be knocked down and may escape and evade but you now have gained some separation from the immediate danger. If a lighter caliber weapon like the 380 contributes to confidence, accuracy, better concealment and more convenient to carry it's possible that it could be the better choice in the world you live in.

An interview in the 80's by the FBI with a retired hit man revealed that his choice of weapons was a 22 cal auto pistol. Head shots where always a one shot kill and chest/abdomen shots immediately took the victim out of action. Very few victims survived one shot hits to the chest/abdomen even though they may not have died on the spot and almost no one ever survived multiple chest/abdomen shots. The 22 penetrates well and leaves a trail of damage that is difficult for a surgeon to follow even though it's the kind of damage that does not knock the victim to the floor with an overwhelming shock. The victim quietly bleeds to death in the hospital over a longer period of time no matter what the doctors do. The hit man stated that the overwhelming factor in a successful shooting is cool, cold blooded steady accuracy under stress with no flinching and no jerky actions. He stated that if you accomplish this it makes no difference what caliber you use. He also stated that you need time on the range and no matter how proficient you may be you will always need a mentor, instructor or a coach just like a golf pro.






I am a believer in shot placement. However, the .22 is not a notorious fight stopper. I question the wisdom of anyone who carries a .22 when alternatives exist, unless that alternative is a .25ACP. This gentleman carrying .22 by choice for assassination is one thing (pick the time/place of engagement, place shots carefully), but in a fast paced, rapidly evolving defensive scenario, I question the judgement of anyone carrying a .22 when alternatives exist. Head shots with ANYTHING are seldom one shot kills. I saw a guy shot in the head with a 9mm JHP (unknown brand, etc). He certainly died.....after he ripped off a few AK rounds. Can .22 kill? yes. Can it win gunfights? Yes. Does it do it better than .38, 9mm, .357, 10mm, .45, or .380? Not the way to bet. None of this calibers are particularly unmanageable. Particularly 9mm and .380 given a minimum of practice.
BREAK
.380 is marginally OK. Run a good bonded bullet, Gold Dots are nice, and I have never known Hornady to make bad ammo. Generally, the extremes are bad IMO. Extremely light and fast, inconsistent penetration. Extremely heavy and slow, inconsistent expansion. Gimmick bullets are just that. Hornady or Gold Dot IMO. Can't go wrong.





You're observations are correct.

That said, I carry a 1911 because that's what I carried in Vietnam. I'm a good shot, practice a lot and have proven past experience using this weapon under pressure as a Corpsman with the Marines. Now that my choice has been made all my emphases is on quick, safe deployment, target selection and accuracy. I'm no longer involved in caliber performance and selection or worried about stopping power. I don't hold much hope for one shot stops and once committed plan to do whatever is necessary to protect myself and family.
 
Originally Posted By: 95busa

.380 is marginally OK. Run a good bonded bullet, Gold Dots are nice, and I have never known Hornady to make bad ammo. Generally, the extremes are bad IMO. Extremely light and fast, inconsistent penetration. Extremely heavy and slow, inconsistent expansion. Gimmick bullets are just that. Hornady or Gold Dot IMO. Can't go wrong.


One of the things that drew me to the Buffalo bore 95grn ammo was the combination of weight, velocity and energy.

Two reasons Gold Dots are not on my short list- First, the lower weight and energy when compared to the Buffalo Bore offering and second, they really don't say whether they are suitable for use in the relatively short barrels that today's carry pistols have. They do some short barreled ammo (9mm) included, but the .380 isn't among them.
 
Any 380 +p would worry me unless the gun was a locked breach design. Most 380's are blowbacks and you might have some issues if there is not enough slide mass and spring resistance there.
 
Originally Posted By: The_Eric

KCJeep- I saw the Critical Defense rounds being tested in gel on Youtube and they did very well. They are also being considered, but I am just trying to find more out on the Buffalo Bore ammo since I haven't seen any gel testing on these two yet.


Eric, I'm not referring to the Critical Defense. I would place those under the "violent expanding" type bullets that I personally stay away from in .380 as I believe they sacrifice too much penetration in the interest of expansion. Gold Dots, PDX-1's, Golden Sabers etc. are all awesome in larger calibers but cost too much penetration in the .380. JMO.

Here are the Hornady's I am referring to. They are a reloading bullet so they are actually loaded by a number of manufacturers, although this one is actually Hornady.

Hornady Ammo

Here's one of the video tests of one of the loadings of the XTP.

You Tube Link Hornady Test
 
I follow modern ballistics closely. In fact I have attended dozens of ballistics workshops and conducted a bunch myself.

In the .380 realm, any of the many XTP loads are super hot right now in .380. Followed by gold dots and hydroshocks. While XTP 's and hydroshocks are considered old technology, they work well within the limitations of the .380.

Buffalo bore has been causing problems in the Glock .380. Loaded too hot and causes the slide to lock back prematurely. Avoid.

As far as Hornady critical defense, it should never, ever, ever, never be loaded in gun that you plan to use for self defense. The stuffs sucks in actual performance. The only thing it has going for it is a large marketing budget and generally good availability when the good stuff isn't available. There isnt a single police dept in the country that issues Hornady Critical Defense. That is what we call a clue.
 
Good post.

Hornady also has "Critical Duty" in more common LEO calibers. I wonder how that compares to "Critical Defense". I think the duty stuff is bonded, but performance wise I have no idea if there is a difference.

The KCPD here has been issuing Gold Dot 180 grain .40 for about 10 years now. Hydra-shocks before that.
 
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
My wife recently decided that she wants a Glock 42- so I set out to look for round suitable for defensive carry.

I remember a discussion here about .380 defensive ammo and Buffalo Bore 100grn hard cast rounds were widely accepted as the round of choice, due to their ability to penetrate where other lighter expanding rounds wouldn't.

That took me to Buffalo Bore's website to check it out, which took me to youtube to watch some gel test videos... One test got 31" in ballistic gel! That got me thinking about pass through shots... Back to Buffalo Bore's site... Some more looking found they have a 95grn JHP +P round, which should do fairly well I would think. Also found an 80grn +P round loaded with the Barnes X bullet (all copper) which gave great expansion in water jugs.

Their web site claims that they evaluated other .380 ACP rounds and found them lacking (general consensus), so they made these rounds to address the poor performance of the .380. One last factor is that all their specs come from actual short barreled defensive pistols- and the accompanying charts show plenty of velocity/energy from super short barrels.

I haven't found either of these rounds fired into ballistic gel yet, so I am curious of your input. What are your thoughts?
I bought 50 rounds of HPR .380 at Field and Stream, and I also got 100 rounds in 9MM. They cost around $23 for 50 rounds. I find the price very reasonable versus the competition.
Here's a video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH2eFby2T9E
 
Few years ago I bought some Winchester Ranger Talon 95gr based on ballistics reviews. Don't know if it's still available, but here's a pretty good selection of defensive HP ammo, and most is in stock.

Ammo To Go, 380 ACP Defensive Rounds
 
While i have hollowpoints in my other calibers, i carry my lcp .380 with FMJ. I worry about proper penetration with expanding rounds in .380. My lcp is not rated for +p.
I would worry about buffalo bore in a legal shoot. I could imagine an attorny making the case, that you bought the most powerful deadly round you could find, you intended to kill, not stop the threat.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: spasm3
I could imagine an attorny making the case, that you bought the most powerful deadly round you could find, you intended to kill, not stop the threat.


If police can carry deadly rounds, then a legally armed citizen should be able to also without worry from some slimy attorney in court. Maybe we should all carry ammo loaded with rock salt like Granny on the Beverly Hill Billies.

Back to topic ... when I did defensive ammo research, it seemed that the Remington Golden Saber had some pretty good results in gel tests.
 
I recently acquired at S&W .380 Body Guard pistol for self & home defense. I luv this little gun with the built in Laser sight system. looking for a good .380 round for this gun myself.
 
In a "low threat" environment (like your home) a .380 is just fine. The .380 ammo you select really won't matter. You are looking to control the combat scene, force the bad guys to withdraw and then you retreat, if possible. A .380, with any type ammo, is not an offensive weapon, only defense. Most home invasions or burglars are not ready for a gun fight.

If you are in a "high threat" environment..well..you want a hand cannon, multiple magazines/ammo and a back up pistol.

Hopefully you don't live in a home with that "high threat" neighborhood description.
 
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