16 wt coming very soon Honda 1st

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Originally Posted By: skyship
Interesting graph, what caused the two bounces at the start of the M1 0/40 use??


No idea...that early into the OCI, I thought M1 0W-40 may well have been the nectar of the gods (it carried an "Energy Conserving") label at the time...Moving average demonstrated that while it wasn't bad, the fliers at the start weren't married to a crash at the next fill. 95% of fills at the same bowser.

New tyres went on at 40,000km, and absolutely muddied the waters on that chart, so I stopped with that chart,and as long as it was around 10km/l I was OK with it.

New tyres at 100,000km, slightly larger OD with a more aggressive tread pattern and construction dropped indicated mileage 6%, 3% odo correction...about 0.3L/100km difference.
 
A few related articles:
SAE 16 vote.

Linkin article

The SAE folks are now working on defining an SAE 12 range, so it looks like we are in a race to the bottom between Honda and Lubrizol (Cowitch works for them), but if you buy a new Honda don't worry because they say the new oil is "Adequate". Not too sure I would be happy with such a new oil term, but I guess if you keep changing it every 5K miles the anti wear additives will keep saving the bearings from wearing out for some time.

This comment in the first article is important:
The concern, explained Covitch, is that some current SAE xW-20 oils on the market might shear out-of-grade according to the new J300's limits

He's hit one nail right on the head there, because some part dino blend 5/20's are no good. The full synthetic 0/20's like M1 and Castrol Edge are much better, although Liqui Moly do make a full synthetic 5/20 that should hold grade and last longer than the 0/20's.
 
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Originally Posted By: ARB1977
Oh well as long it protects its good to go. 20W has proven itself, I'm sure 16W will do the same.


If you believe the snake oil advertising and add Moly to the two top quality full synthetics that you are using, then the light oil beans counters will find it easy to convince you black is white and you will be destined to short OCI's and high oil consumption.
 
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Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
Oh well as long it protects its good to go. 20W has proven itself, I'm sure 16W will do the same.


If you believe the snake oil advertising and add Moly to the two top quality full synthetics that you are using, then the light oil beans counters will find it easy to convince you black is white and you will be destined to short OCI's and high oil consumption.


Once again you are talking out the side of your neck. Do you go around predicting doomsday to generate posts and site hits?
 
Originally Posted By: Danno
To avoid confusion with 15WXX oils. This new weight spec has been discussed previously.

I've heard this explanation but it doesn't make sense. 0W-15 and 15W-40 don't look anything alike (unless you have bad eyes).
 
Originally Posted By: skyship
I thought Ford were in the lead as regards the thin oil game, so it's a surprise to see Honda trying to win the fuel economy race.

Honda was the first to specify a 0W-20 oil back in 1999. Honda has always had the lead in thin oil recommendations.
 
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Originally Posted By: GMBoy
The thinnest I will go is 5W/30.


Good idea in general, but the first of the new generation engines and hybrids are now available that were designed from scratch for 20 grade use and the EU oil sites do list 0 or 5/20's for those engines.
Oil quality is important as some cheap 5/30's shear to a 20, but a good full synthetic 0/20 can maintain grade, so there won't be much of a difference.
If you keep accurate records of oil consumption from when an engine is new, the time to move up from a 20 to 30 grade is when it starts to increase, which if the engine is not subject to heavy loads and high temperatures or cold start abuse, may be some years. The increase in oil consumption will correspond with the bearings being degraded in surface finish terms so that they require a thicker oil film for protection.
The big thing I don't understand about present R&D efforts is that bypass oil filters that are popular with truck owners are not being developed to fit the small confines of a cars engine bay. If you can keep the contaminant particle size down then using thin oil is less problematic if the oil gets contaminated and old engines do cause a lot more bearing wear from particle streaks.
 
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: Danno
To avoid confusion with 15WXX oils. This new weight spec has been discussed previously.

I've heard this explanation but it doesn't make sense. 0W-15 and 15W-40 don't look anything alike (unless you have bad eyes).



They will have to colour code the cans!! I suggested a colour coding scheme for oil types to Castrol years ago because of folks using the wrong top up oil and the situation is now much more complicated with more different oil grades and types available. The idea was to make the oil filler cap with 2 colours so you just had to match colours and that would mean you have the right type and viscosity.
 
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Originally Posted By: skyship
Changing to a modern high tech German ZF power steering system even saves a few percent for a bus or truck and the latest ZF auto box is 6% more efficient than the best manual box and can change gears faster than a formula 1 race driver.
The real bad news is that most of the low to mid end car manufactuers are involved in a serious price war and are cutting component costs as fast as they can and that means back speccing cheaper bearings in particular and when combined with the use of cheap part dino 5/20 oils by some dealers the results will be increased bearing wear,

Where does Skyship come-up with this stuff?
It's like he pulled it out of noplace.

I wonder if we'll see any 16w-40 or 16w-50 oils in the future?
 
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Originally Posted By: yonyon
Back spec the older LSx engines to a 20 grade? Would that be the same conservative GM that gave us the Chevy small block and 700R4? Would that be the company that gave us the Chevy Suburban, the Coupe deVille, Allison transmissions, and Detroit Diesel? Would it be the same company that built my Fiero (which gets me back and forth to work even after being submerged in seawater for two freaking days) and is a car built so tough that you can stop on railroad tracks, get hit by a train at speed, and reasonably expect to walk away? Are we talking about the GM that still puts push rods in the engine of it's flagship sports car? Somehow I think they'll say that 5w-30 is still appropriate for the older engines. Not exactly a bunch of Indiana Joneses, that lot.

Edit:
They like to know, for sure, 100%, that something works as reliably as anyone can possibly expect for a very long time. Only then, when it's well proven to be that rock solid, only then are they ready to suddenly abandon it and do something else that's entirely different. When that time comes, the old units can just keep on keeping on.


Hey, their technology may be dated, but I am a big fan of if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I wish their high performance offerings would stay simple. The new Corvette isn't going to be just 4 wheels and a motor.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
In other words "I'm right, you do your research."

Not buying it. Prove it skyship.


Honda's mo9tivation is clear in the first post of this thread
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2858649&page=1

You could always pay attention, or use the search function that you advocate others to do.


The only thing in that entire posts that attempts to explain anything is this quote...

Quote:
Honda says tests show that its current design engines can gain fuel economy benefits and maintain adequate durability from oils with viscosity grades lower than SAE 0W-20.


Lets look up what adequate means...

Quote:
adequate (comparative more adequate, superlative most adequate)

Equal to some requirement; proportionate, or correspondent; fully sufficient; as, powers adequate to a great work; an adequate definition lawfully and physically sufficient.


5W-30 is adequate. 20W-50 is adequate too. So is 0W-20. You're attempting to make a correlation that doesn't exist, which is saying that 16W oils aren't adequate, by using no evidence. You just want people to hear thicker oils are perfect and 16W is adequate which is a neat way to twist words. All oils are adequate for their appropriate applications.

Prove it skyship (and Shannow! You're apparently an engineer, act like one). Show me where engines will definitely suffer on 16W oils. Show me where there is empirical evidence it will cause failures in passenger car applications. Show me wear numbers, pictures of failing engines, damaged components.
 
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Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
The thinnest I will go is 5W/30.


Good idea in general, but the first of the new generation engines and hybrids are now available that were designed from scratch for 20 grade use and the EU oil sites do list 0 or 5/20's for those engines.
Oil quality is important as some cheap 5/30's shear to a 20, but a good full synthetic 0/20 can maintain grade, so there won't be much of a difference.
If you keep accurate records of oil consumption from when an engine is new, the time to move up from a 20 to 30 grade is when it starts to increase, which if the engine is not subject to heavy loads and high temperatures or cold start abuse, may be some years. The increase in oil consumption will correspond with the bearings being degraded in surface finish terms so that they require a thicker oil film for protection.
The big thing I don't understand about present R&D efforts is that bypass oil filters that are popular with truck owners are not being developed to fit the small confines of a cars engine bay. If you can keep the contaminant particle size down then using thin oil is less problematic if the oil gets contaminated and old engines do cause a lot more bearing wear from particle streaks.


I have seen where the most respected 5W30 synthetics sheared out of grade. But the most cost efficient 5W20 conventional has not. So where are you getting your data?
 
I get to read some files from the archive of the main ZF fluid analysis lab. Every engine is different and I've seen one murder a full synthetic only for another following result from the same engine produce perfect results, just because of a change in driver or climate. On average a dino based oil will suffer more high temp shear than a good full synthetic, although don't forget that it is possible to make a bad HC synthetic, although all the major brand HC oils are good.
 
Originally Posted By: skyship
I get to read some files from the archive of the main ZF fluid analysis lab. Every engine is different and I've seen one murder a full synthetic only for another following result from the same engine produce perfect results, just because of a change in driver or climate. On average a dino based oil will suffer more high temp shear than a good full synthetic, although don't forget that it is possible to make a bad HC synthetic, although all the major brand HC oils are good.


Then Mobil One, Pennzoil, Amsoil, Valvoline, Castrol, Quaker State, Havoline, and just about every other 5W30 synthetic is cheap because in over 90% of applications in the U.S. they all shear in 5W30 and I have yet to see any 20 grades shear out of 20SAE grade neither in conventional or synthetic applications, so I guess you are the one in ten thousand. I will watch you BITOG career with great anticipation please do not disappoint.
 
In terms of 16W oils the proof is that it is unlikely to be a recommended oil outside the US and the manufacturer will insist on a shorter OCI within the US to compensate for the use of the thinner oil.
If you look in Google and type in some keywords related to 20 grade oil use there are lots of reported cases of high oil consumption (The warranty limits had to be increased in many cases) and failures, but trying to prove the exact cause of an old engine failing is a nightmare in terms of actual proof, so there is no point posting all the links.
The important point for owners of new cars in the US that have a handbook that contains only one oil viscosity, rather than the designers temp vs oil grade graph, is that they can find the real information from the manufacturers design team and that is available outside the US, from both the dealers or manufactures and engine oil companies.
The biggest differences I have seen so far are for a 2.0 Ford diesel that has 5/20 dino blend listed in the US, but various oils ranging from 5/30 to 15/40 listed outside the US with double the OCI. The Kia even had a 20/50 listed for desert operations and a specific warning from the manufacturer not to use 5/20 in hot climates, in complete contrast to what was printed in the US.
 
Originally Posted By: skyship
[...]the proof is that it is unlikely to be a recommended oil outside the US and the manufacturer will insist on a shorter OCI within the US[...]


Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Show me where engines will definitely suffer on 16W oils. Show me where there is empirical evidence it will cause failures in passenger car applications. Show me wear numbers, pictures of failing engines, damaged components.


This isn't proof, so you still haven't answered me. Prove it skyship. I don't care what they do in other countries, I want evidence that in a regular passenger car, driven by regular passengers, replacing a 30 weight with a 20 or 16 will guarantee more engine damage and that manufacturers are letting this happen to benefit fuel economy, and that the car will have a measurably shorter lifespan because of it.

According to you, thin oils guarantee that my engine will be damaged, period, and the car will have a measurably shorter lifespan. Prove it.
 
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