Rethink and understand SAE viscosity: a 0W-20 can be thicker than a 0W-40 or 5W-40

[schwinney]

I see your point.
Although XW-20 is more shear stable than say 20W-50, it's HT/FS would be 2.4 (that's pretty thick for the grade) (HT/HS started at 2.9). That leaves higher temperatures, as a second factor further reducing the HT/FS to an alarming figures in extended high RPM operation, which cannot be considered for these high performance engines because it wouldn't bear the elevated temperatures. But 20W-50 even if it is less shear stable, will retain HT/FS 3.5 for instance (HT/HS started at 4.7), and will have more headroom for higher temperatures to continue providing a safe film and minimize boundary lubrication incidents. Add to that, even if the oil permanently sheared, no VIIs, worst case, it's still able to provide a safe, effective film.

On the other hand, HT/HS is relevant to the bearings where VIIs can still contribute to viscosity at this shear rate.

So, XW-20 can be thicker than XW-40 in some cases if we're talking about HT/FS which is relevant to to the valves train and piston rings, but it doesn't mean it will protect the bearings better than XW-40 when it comes to HT/HS.
Both HT/HS and HT/FS have their place in correlation to engine wear and eventually they may be two sides of the same coin.

Thank you for bringing this back to J300 discussion.

 

[RDY4WAR]

Y'all are arguing marketing terms. "Ester-based" could mean 1% ester or 100% ester. It's just some marketing babble saying "Hey, look at us. We're special!"

 

[schwinney]

Nope, their marketing has been consistently of this style "ester-based", with no mention of the PAO base that makes up the bulk, lol.

Thank you. Goes to show your whole blow up at me was unwarranted so I'll take that apology. But carry on.

 

[schwinney]

Y'all are arguing marketing terms. "Ester-based" could mean 1% ester or 100% ester. It's just some marketing babble saying "Hey, look at us. We're special!"

I am special. But that's another topic 🤣🤣

 

[buster]

I do feel it's a bit disingenuous to claim "fully synthetic ester formula", but hey it's marketing.

I got tired of wondering so I picked up the phone and spoke to Dave directly. I told him I understand you can't divulge formulation secrets, but a lot of Redline users are under the impression that your products are majority ester based. Is there any chance you can give a rough estimate on how much you guys use. He said in the 40% range. Do I believe that? No.

I also don't believe the oxidation figure tells you much, however I was persistent about it due to a few reasons. Valvoline Premium Restor shows an oxidation figure of 110 and is stated to be 50% ester. Redline is the only other oil I've ever seen that shows a virigion oxidation figure of 90 to as high as 130 (5w40). This corroborates to what we see with Valvoline Restore. Amsoil is around 50-60 for the oxidation reading and M1 0w40 around 36.

This doesn't mean that RL is using 40% ester, but it is interesting and questionable.

I'm on the fence actually to how much POE is in RL. It could be substantial, or it could be in line with Amsoil etc. which is suspected to be in the 10-15% range.

It's all speculation at this point.

*Even if Redline was using 20-30% group V, that's more than probably most oils on the market and would still be considered majority PAO. So saying it's majority PAO doesn't negate that they use substantial ester.

The virgin figure for RL 5w40 is 129, higher than any other oil I've ever seen. Not even close.

This guy has speculated that they use esters from Croda. No idea how he would know that. He also said Amsoil uses esters from Croda as well.

Ester base oils | Energy Technologies

Discover our diverse range of synthetic ester base oils that can be custom designed to physical and performance related specifications for industrial, marine and automotive applications.

www.crodaenergytechnologies.com

 

[OVERKILL]

I do feel it's a bit disingenuous to claim "fully synthetic ester formula", but hey it's marketing.

That mirrors my position, but Motul does the same thing, so... 🤷‍♂️

 

[schwinney]

That mirrors my position, but Motul does the same thing, so... 🤷‍♂️

That's exactly why it's okay to say it like I said it. You know it, so say it.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

In the past it was 10w40, when it went to 5W30 caused a lot of engine damage, today it is 0W20 and soon even thinner. None of these predictions have come true. And there will be no excessive wear and tear this time either, even if the rule will soon be 0W16 and thinner.

From as far back as the 60s / 70s (earlier too I bet) and on 10w40 was the "go to oil" for street and non severe service. Then around late 1990s, I think it all started where all the experts started acting like 10w40 was dealdy posion or the devil's brew.

 

[4WD]

That mirrors my position, but Motul does the same thing, so... 🤷‍♂️

Well - RL have always touted a natural VI - and HTHS in 40 ball park … doubt there is much VM …
Think the Noack of 10W30 is 6 …

 

[schwinney]

Well - RL have always touted a natural VI - and HTHS in 40 ball park … doubt there is much VM …
Think the Noack of 10W30 is 6 …

What do you mean by this?

 

[4WD]

What do you mean by this?

They mean to say it can handle a wide range of temperatures with less VM …

Viscosity index - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[aquariuscsm]

Y'all are arguing marketing terms. "Ester-based" could mean 1% ester or 100% ester. It's just some marketing babble saying "Hey, look at us. We're special!"

When I think of a “base”, I think of the largest portion of a product. So to my layman’s ears, I’d infer that ester makes up the largest portion of their oil. Like the “main ingredient” per se.

 

[4WD]

When I think of a “base”, I think of the largest portion of a product. So to my layman’s ears, I’d infer that ester makes up the largest portion of their oil. Like the “main ingredient” per se.

Maybe think of it like a V8 - only they added boost LoL … 😷
Considering Base oil consists of several base stocks (often) …

 

[930.engineering]

Same here. They still advertise "Ester based oil" on their website. No mention of PAO base. Copy and paste from their 20W-50:

• Full-synthetic ester formula for passenger cars, light trucks, performance vehicles and marine applications

There is no 100 % ester PCMO existing. Come on, you joined Bitog in 2006.
Well, 'ester formula' is a marketing term meaning 'there's a dash of ester' in
it. That said, PAO along with POE (ester) very much complement each other.
If you like so to speak group IV with group V (ester & AN) is the silver bullet.

Yep, and if my memory serves me correctly, didn't the pao thing begin when P66 bought out Redline?

NO!

Despite the obvious chemical diff, thot Grp IV and V's were similar in terms of performance. I wonder what the key differences are. It appears PAO's are less expensive for the blender? Hmm...

Sorry, that's crap.
.

 

[schwinney]

They mean to say it can handle a wide range of temperatures with less VM …

Viscosity index - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Right, that's VIs in general.. You said a "natural VI" - so that's a function more of base oil then would you say

 

[schwinney]

There is no 100 % ester PCMO existing. Come on, you joined Bitog in 2006.
Well, 'ester formula' is a marketing term meaning 'there's a dash of ester' in
it. That said, PAO along with POE (ester) very much complement each other.
If you like so to speak group IV with group V (ester & AN) is the silver bullet.




NO!




Sorry, that's crap.
.

Correct.

There CAN'T be a 100% Group V/ester because Group V is polarizing or something to do with stability of.. if I'm recalling correctly. Has to be off-set by something. Am I on the right track here?

 

[4WD]

Right, that's VIs in general.. You said a "natural VI" - so that's a function more of base oil then would you say

“They said” … base oil composed of various base stocks can have a naturally good VI …

 

[OVERKILL]

When I think of a “base”, I think of the largest portion of a product. So to my layman’s ears, I’d infer that ester makes up the largest portion of their oil. Like the “main ingredient” per se.

And that's the idea, that's the marketing "angle" here.

 

[schwinney]

And that's the idea, that's the marketing "angle" here.

**** shame you're trying to act like you don't see my posts.. one of those days.

"Angle" here.

 

[FCD]

Motul for example has the Motul Sport Ester 5W-50, it has like 5% Ester iirc 😅