10w30 synthetics?

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

But then you're the guy always talking about running ultra thin oils that inherently have lower HTHS. You've yet to show slightly higher VI leads to tangible benefits inside the engine.

I don't consider a 0W-20 an "ultra thin oil", and the reason I can run that grade in a couple of cars is because my oil temp's are well contained. If I was seeing sump oil temp's of 150C you can bet I'd be running a 0W-40 although I would do everything possible to reduce my oil temp's to a more sane level with oil coolers first if I could, so that such a heavy oil was not necessary.

I appreciate your point about the 20 point VI difference between PP 5W-30 and 10W-30 and I would add in your favour that PP 10W-30 likely has a slightly higher VI than PP 5W-30. But the difference is there and given the choice I would choose the 5W-30. Having said that, I wouldn't buy PP 5W-30 either but rather PP Euro LX 0W-30 which has both a 3.5cP HTHSV and a 204 VI. So not only is it lighter than PP 5W-30 (and way lighter than the 10W-30) at temp's as high as 90F but has a much higher HTHSV to the 10W-30.

 

[Nitronoise]

I use a 10w 30 Shell Rotella T-5 in my sons Jeep , 22 years old , 175 K and it keeps on tickin", the kids have not been able to kill it, use it year round , HOWEVER , I did try a fill of Rotella T-6 5W40 for the summer to see how oil pressure and long hauls look and run a lab on it

 

[Oro_O]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
[
You can see that straight SAE 30, at 30F (-1C) has the oil coming out the rockers at 3 seconds and full oil pressure in 6 seconds. A 10w-30 shows the same 6 second full oil pressure at 9F (-17C) but a slightly longer 10 seconds for the rockers. A 5w-20 at a warmer 12F (-11C) shows the same 6 second full oil pressure time but a lower rocker flow time of 5 seconds, similar to the SAE 30 at 30F. This illustrates that generally, using a lubricant with the appropriate W rating for the anticipated ambient temperatures results in approximately the same amount of time required to reach full oil pressure.


Thank you and the others who helped answer this question. It is very helful in contemplating the differences in the two on the low end of the temp. scale.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: jdavis
Originally Posted By: SR5


My dream oil (today) is a full synthetic 10W-30 that is ACEA A3/B4, I've haven't found one yet.


M1 HM 10w-30 is A3/B3.. not sure what the difference is with B4 though..?


Yes, M1 HM 10W-30 has a HTHS of 3.5 and 1100ppm Zn and is rated A3/B3. That's a great oil !! An I would buy it in a second, but I can't find anybody selling it locally in Australia. Almost all our regular 10W-30 oils in Australia are semi-synthetics

I can get regular M1 5W-30, but it has a HTHS of 3.1 and 900 ppm Zn and is rated A1/B1. Not the same thing at all. Instead I go for our local Castro Edge 5W-30 A3/B4, it has a HTHS of 3.6, about 1000 ppm Zn (I believe), and a high TBN (>10).

The main difference between A3/B3 and A3/B4 is TBN. You need a TBN of 8 or more to be A3/B3, but a TBN of 10 or more to be A3/B4.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

I don't consider a 0W-20 an "ultra thin oil", and the reason I can run that grade in a couple of cars is because my oil temp's are well contained. If I was seeing sump oil temp's of 150C you can bet I'd be running a 0W-40 although I would do everything possible to reduce my oil temp's to a more sane level with oil coolers first if I could, so that such a heavy oil was not necessary.


I do agree that oil temperature control is very important

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

-While a super low Noack is nice what's the advantage vs a good Noack in the 9-11% range? Lower oil consumption? Not that anyone can measure. Cleaner intake tract? Not if the oil itself leaves high deposit levels.



I think low Noack is good for long term engine health and that oil consumption, dirty pistons and stuck rings can be caused by oil volatility problems, and a thicker less volatile oil can help. It's been mentioned in a few threads, but here is one talking about stuck piston rings in a Audi.

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy

However I tend to think that if Audi had, from new, used an oil will a very low volatility, and particularly one with a heavy front end, then extractive distillation of the oil in the presence of re-evaporating fuel in the sump could have been minimised and less oil would have ended up being burnt. I guess we will just never know...


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3899559/1

 

[KingCake]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Or
What is the real-world difference in cold start between comparable 5w-30 and 10w-30s when the ambient temp is around 30F/0C? I see lots of specs on visc. at much higher and lower numbers but can't find any practical information about what it means around there, which is "winter cold" in a substantial part of the US.


Shannow posted this a while back:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3891475/Re:_For_those_that_constantly_#Post3891475

You can see that straight SAE 30, at 30F (-1C) has the oil coming out the rockers at 3 seconds and full oil pressure in 6 seconds. A 10w-30 shows the same 6 second full oil pressure at 9F (-17C) but a slightly longer 10 seconds for the rockers. A 5w-20 at a warmer 12F (-11C) shows the same 6 second full oil pressure time but a lower rocker flow time of 5 seconds, similar to the SAE 30 at 30F. This illustrates that generally, using a lubricant with the appropriate W rating for the anticipated ambient temperatures results in approximately the same amount of time required to reach full oil pressure.


You're comparing different temps. 5W30 is *always* going to reach rocker quicker than 10w30 no matter the temp.

 

[Torrid]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Doesn't PYB 10W30 have a really low NOACK, just above 4%?
Seems like a good budget choice in the right climate.


Yep, which is why it made its way into my Jag and the Lincoln will get it next. There's absolutely no reason for me to run a 0w-30 or 5w-30 in Vegas anyway.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: KingCake
You're comparing different temps. 5W30 is *always* going to reach rocker quicker than 10w30 no matter the temp.


Nope, not even close.

the W ratings are for the abiility for the oil to be pumped in the first place, and for engine cranking requirements.

In the example shown, the 5W30 at -1c would NOT beat the SAE 30, as the oil is pumpable in the first instance, and the positive displacement pump will shift the same volume of oil for every revolution until the galleries are filled.

But if you can find some evidence that supports your statement, I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

The Esso cold flow videos at -35 or -40C demonstrate what happens below the pumpability limits, not what happens on pumpable oil.

 

[Joe90_guy]

I always thought the ideal oil for a lot of the temperate world would be a semi-synthetic, Group II/III, VII-free 10W20.

It would combine low Noack, acceptable cold-flow (for most folks), a splash of fuel economy, zero shear, good oxidative stability, acceptable wear and most important of all; low cost.

To get the 'low cost' angle, you need to understand that whilst a typical oil might consist of 90% base oil and 10% DI/Solid VII, additives are roughly 4 - 5 times the cost of base oil, so typically contribute 40% of the cost. Take out all the VII and you take out the one additive that contributes most to piston deposits. Once you do this, you need less ashless dispersant to clean up the mess caused by VII. Reduce ashless and all things being equal, your Noack goes down even further.

Of course such an oil would be anathema to the oil companies and the AddCo's and the OEMs would never support it because they need their 0W16's and their ilk to max out their CAFE credits, but if you think in terms of what would benefit the general public most, it makes a lot of sense...

 

[Oro_O]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: KingCake
You're comparing different temps. 5W30 is *always* going to reach rocker quicker than 10w30 no matter the temp.


Nope, not even close....



This is what I keep thinking. Given a temp range where both oils flow, how can the 5w-30 be any better - perhaps only in that it is less viscous when it gets there and flows faster once there, but it's not going to be quicker. And in a temp range where both flow reasonably well, how can there be any huge real-world difference in that regard? The start-up lube is the residual oil clinging to parts from the last shut-down, not what is waiting to come up from the pump.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: skyactiv
Some 10W30's show fantastically low NOACK numbers. So I can't fault someone living in Miami or Phoenix using it in something calling for 5W30.

You can accomplish the same with a monograde 30, for that matter. Canadian Tire has yanked almost every 10w-30 synthetic from their shelves at our locations, several months ago. From a pure marketing perspective, if everyone in North America followed their owners manuals for oil changes, 10w-30 would command much less shelf space.

wemay: Oh yes, it will outsell in shops, particularly. While you may not note it at Walmart or most retail oil locations, a 10w-30 in bulk is often cheaper than a 5w-30, though that's beginning to change slowly. That can be noticed, too, in bulk synthetic when it comes to 0w-20 versus 5w-20, with the latter being a bit cheaper, despite them being the same brand, same tier, and same container size.

 

[Shannow]

I'm interested that Honda are speccing, and making a 10W30 for their marine engines, even when those marine engines are based on motor vehicle engines.

If the 0W20 that they use in the car engines provides superior wear protection under all conditions, why would Honda choose an "obsolete" oil grade for these ?

Then advertise it as being particularly shear stable ?

 

[Garak]

That's interesting, but not surprising, about the marine engines. I'm surprised they don't call for 20w-40, or something so similarly rare as to require one to go to the dealer and pay a whack of money.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: jdavis
Originally Posted By: SR5


My dream oil (today) is a full synthetic 10W-30 that is ACEA A3/B4, I've haven't found one yet.


M1 HM 10w-30 is A3/B3.. not sure what the difference is with B4 though..?


Yes, M1 HM 10W-30 has a HTHS of 3.5 and 1100ppm Zn and is rated A3/B3. That's a great oil !! An I would buy it in a second, but I can't find anybody selling it locally in Australia. Almost all our regular 10W-30 oils in Australia are semi-synthetics

I can get regular M1 5W-30, but it has a HTHS of 3.1 and 900 ppm Zn and is rated A1/B1. Not the same thing at all. Instead I go for our local Castro Edge 5W-30 A3/B4, it has a HTHS of 3.6, about 1000 ppm Zn (I believe), and a high TBN (>10).

The main difference between A3/B3 and A3/B4 is TBN. You need a TBN of 8 or more to be A3/B3, but a TBN of 10 or more to be A3/B4.


Thanks for the explanation.

Do we have any A3/B4's here?

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Garak
That's interesting, but not surprising, about the marine engines. I'm surprised they don't call for 20w-40, or something so similarly rare as to require one to go to the dealer and pay a whack of money.

We actually have Quick Silver 20w40 locally at our Walmarts. Not sure on the quality, but I am sure it beats going to the dealer.

IIRC, Mercruiser calls for this weight with their various engines, but many people online (here included) have used Rotella 15w40. The engine won't see enough hrs for the 15w vs. the 20w to matter apparently. 15w40 T5 is also coming more available and might be a good choice.

 

[Garak]

Oh yes, there are plenty of A3/B4 lubricants around in North America, most being 40 grades, like M1 0w-40. GC is another one. I haven't seen a 10w-30 A3/B4 here, but we do have Castrol Edge 5w-30 A3/B4. When someone wants "thicker" and goes from a 5w-30 ILSAC to a 10w-30 ILSAC, I scratch my head. The A3/B4 5w-30 is a thicker example than an ILSAC 5w-30, at least.

I have heard of that brand having a 20w-40. I haven't seen anything that exotic at our Walmarts, but it certainly could be available elsewhere. I'm not exactly sure, either, what a 20w-40 would accomplish that a good HDEO couldn't, either.

 

[53' Stude]

So, can anyone tell me the NOACK of PUP?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: KingCake


You're comparing different temps. 5W30 is *always* going to reach rocker quicker than 10w30 no matter the temp.


For starters, stating "no matter the temp" means that you really don't understand the rating system. As temperatures approach 100C, the 5w-30 may actually be HEAVIER than a comparable 10w-30. And secondly, as Shannow already covered, and also mentioned in the thread I pulled the image from and linked, this all hinges on how a positive displacement oil pump functions. The pump doesn't know or care if it is 5w-30 or 10w-30, it shifts the same amount of oil per revolution and this is what the engine sees unless the relief is open.

That's where we get into the purpose of the W (Winter) rating, which specifies two limits: Pumpability and Cold Cranking.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Or
What is the real-world difference in cold start between comparable 5w-30 and 10w-30s when the ambient temp is around 30F/0C? I see lots of specs on visc. at much higher and lower numbers but can't find any practical information about what it means around there, which is "winter cold" in a substantial part of the US.


Shannow posted this a while back:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3891475/Re:_For_those_that_constantly_#Post3891475

You can see that straight SAE 30, at 30F (-1C) has the oil coming out the rockers at 3 seconds and full oil pressure in 6 seconds. A 10w-30 shows the same 6 second full oil pressure at 9F (-17C) but a slightly longer 10 seconds for the rockers. A 5w-20 at a warmer 12F (-11C) shows the same 6 second full oil pressure time but a lower rocker flow time of 5 seconds, similar to the SAE 30 at 30F. This illustrates that generally, using a lubricant with the appropriate W rating for the anticipated ambient temperatures results in approximately the same amount of time required to reach full oil pressure.


I don't find this to be very useful because these temps are not really COLD.