M1 0w40...FS vs European Car Formula?

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
The story is that m1 0w40 was reformulated and thus needs to be retested to continue claiming ll01 compliance. At the same time, apparently bmw made the testing requirements a lot more burdensome, so some oil mfgs decided to pass on it.

I do not believe that a bit. M1 is still keeping its VISOM in Europe for a reason.
Like I stated before, I am leaning to the theory that M1 actually cannot meet LL-01 with GTL base stock.

 

[Garak]

None of the explanations fit with all that we know, though, it seems. Pennzoil is able to make an LL-01 oil with GTL; in fact, they have more than one. Mobil has made LL-01 oils in the past, and still has at least two examples I can think of, one being the older M1 0w-40 still used in Europe, and the other being the bulk product.

I find it hard to believe that Mobil "cannot" meet LL-01 with GTL or any other suitable base stock. Similarly, I'm skeptical as to the time frame, if we're to believe the story that the certification expired and/or the testing became more difficult. If Mobil wants LL-01 on their M1 0w-40 in North America, they have the resources to accomplish this very readily.

 

[Jetronic]

isn't the Mobil oil sold in europe, MADE IN EUROPE?

I would expect it's either a supply and demand issue or contracts with suppliers of ingredients that means it makes more sense to keep the old recipe going in the european plant(s). a lack of GTL production capability maybe?

 

[SilverC6]

So it appears Mobil has chosen to just write off US BMW aftermarket oil sales.

This is similar to their stance on RAM/Cummins on their TDT 5W-40 diesel oil.

It's certainly not intuitive to produce a capable oil in the appropriate grade and then not seek the certifications that let you properly serve the marketplace.

Mobil is just limiting its own market share and creating a question of perceived inferiority compared to other oils readily meeting a broader range of specifications.

 

[kschachn]

Man, the stuff people make up when there is no data is simply amazing.

The only fact in this discussion is that the M1 0W-40 currently sold in the U.S. does not carry Longlife-01 certification. After that, no one knows anything.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
None of the explanations fit with all that we know, though, it seems. Pennzoil is able to make an LL-01 oil with GTL; in fact, they have more than one. Mobil has made LL-01 oils in the past, and still has at least two examples I can think of, one being the older M1 0w-40 still used in Europe, and the other being the bulk product.

I find it hard to believe that Mobil "cannot" meet LL-01 with GTL or any other suitable base stock. Similarly, I'm skeptical as to the time frame, if we're to believe the story that the certification expired and/or the testing became more difficult. If Mobil wants LL-01 on their M1 0w-40 in North America, they have the resources to accomplish this very readily.

And they do not have LL-01 for BMW. We are not talking here Hyundai, we are talking BMW.
Yes, M1 meets LL-01 in Europe, but in Europe they still sell old VISOM based M1 0W40, not GTL based 0W40 FS.

 

[MCompact]

I may have mentioned it before, but to me it sounds counter-intuitive to establish a certification such as LL-01 and then change the parameters of the standard. I would think that you would rename a standard that is tougher to meet.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Garak
None of the explanations fit with all that we know, though, it seems. Pennzoil is able to make an LL-01 oil with GTL; in fact, they have more than one. Mobil has made LL-01 oils in the past, and still has at least two examples I can think of, one being the older M1 0w-40 still used in Europe, and the other being the bulk product.

I find it hard to believe that Mobil "cannot" meet LL-01 with GTL or any other suitable base stock. Similarly, I'm skeptical as to the time frame, if we're to believe the story that the certification expired and/or the testing became more difficult. If Mobil wants LL-01 on their M1 0w-40 in North America, they have the resources to accomplish this very readily.

And they do not have LL-01 for BMW. We are not talking here Hyundai, we are talking BMW.
Yes, M1 meets LL-01 in Europe, but in Europe they still sell old VISOM based M1 0W40, not GTL based 0W40 FS.

There's lot of Group III oils with LL-01 approval. It doesn't sound logical that M1 cannot satisfy BMW standard simply because of base oil IMO.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: MCompact
I may have mentioned it before, but to me it sounds counter-intuitive to establish a certification such as LL-01 and then change the parameters of the standard. I would think that you would rename a standard that is tougher to meet.


Just like ACEA sequences BMW approvals are updated as requirements change. LL -01 from 05 differs from 16 version, just like A3/B4 do. BMW kept it simple, costumer can be assured that when he buys oil he will get the latest version on the shelf.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Yes, M1 meets LL-01 in Europe, but in Europe they still sell old VISOM based M1 0W40, not GTL based 0W40 FS.

Yes, which still leaves us to wonder when and if LL-01 will be back, and if not, why not. We have Group III and Group IV examples of LL-01 as it is, along with GTL examples.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6
I'm aware of the Pennzoil Euro.

Usually 8 quarts sitting at the local Autozone until the $2 oil sale.

Never seen it in a big box store next to the M1 0W-40 and the Castrol 0W-40.

Until Shell supports it at the same level as its more mundane synthetic offerings, it's a non-player in the marketplace.

Lookie here...

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr...rt_#Post4326802

Alas, no LL-01 approval, just like M1 0w-40.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Yes, M1 meets LL-01 in Europe, but in Europe they still sell old VISOM based M1 0W40, not GTL based 0W40 FS.

Yes, which still leaves us to wonder when and if LL-01 will be back, and if not, why not. We have Group III and Group IV examples of LL-01 as it is, along with GTL examples.

Exactly, and I have hard time believing that M1 just decided to drop LL-01. I would think that there is certain issue to their GTL and ad pack that makes it currently unsuitable to LL-01.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
I'm aware of the Pennzoil Euro.

Usually 8 quarts sitting at the local Autozone until the $2 oil sale.

Never seen it in a big box store next to the M1 0W-40 and the Castrol 0W-40.

Until Shell supports it at the same level as its more mundane synthetic offerings, it's a non-player in the marketplace.

Lookie here...

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr...rt_#Post4326802

Alas, no LL-01 approval, just like M1 0w-40.


Yup, saw that, and that's now BMW's brand buddy so....

 

[robertcope]

Edited... wrong oil. Seems like Pennzoil's Euro 5W-40 meets LL-01 but not 0W-40.

robert

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: robertcope
Edited... wrong oil. Seems like Pennzoil's Euro 5W-40 meets LL-01 but not 0W-40.

robert

Yes, 5W40 meets LL-01. 0W40 is know as SRT, and it is made for different application (FCA).

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: robertcope
Edited... wrong oil. Seems like Pennzoil's Euro 5W-40 meets LL-01 but not 0W-40.

robert

Yes, 5W40 meets LL-01. 0W40 is know as SRT, and it is made for different application (FCA).


No, this is an entirely different Euro 0w-40 we are discussing, not the SRT product.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: robertcope
Edited... wrong oil. Seems like Pennzoil's Euro 5W-40 meets LL-01 but not 0W-40.

robert

Yes, 5W40 meets LL-01. 0W40 is know as SRT, and it is made for different application (FCA).


No, this is an entirely different Euro 0w-40 we are discussing, not the SRT product.

OK< thought you are talking about SRT.
Still, Pennzoil has LL-01 products available. M1 does not have single oil that carries LL-01 in the U.S.

 

[weasley]

Originally Posted By: edyvw

I worked on oil testing from idea to the point when it was sent to VW for approval. When company sent it for approval, VW returned approval and invoice for 3200 euros. I am talking about actual test of oil, NOT development.
So please....


But when you change formulation you have to do some or all of the development tests again (dependent on what you changed and by how much), you don't just send in a new approval submission.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: robertcope
Edited... wrong oil. Seems like Pennzoil's Euro 5W-40 meets LL-01 but not 0W-40.

robert

Yes, 5W40 meets LL-01. 0W40 is know as SRT, and it is made for different application (FCA).


No, this is an entirely different Euro 0w-40 we are discussing, not the SRT product.

OK< thought you are talking about SRT.
Still, Pennzoil has LL-01 products available. M1 does not have single oil that carries LL-01 in the U.S.


But they do in Canada. Weird eh?

 

[edyvw]

Quote:
But they do in Canada. Weird eh?

Yes, Super3000 I think, right?
But that oil is typical HC oil. That is why I am thinking there is connection between M1 GTL base and loss of LL-01. Their VISOM and other base stocks in that category are still LL-01.