I'm about 4k into my first run of GC in my '94 530i's M60B30 and am getting moderate lifter tick - not loud but definitely noticeable at city speeds with the windows down - until the engine is good and hot. I'd like to run this fill out to 8k and don't want to dump it just to see if that's what's causing the tick. Has anyone else had the same thing happen with an M60 or its relatives?
Lifter tick in M60B30 - GC to blame?
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Originally Posted By: calvin1
I'm about 4k into my first run of GC in my '94 530i's M60B30 and am getting moderate lifter tick - not loud but definitely noticeable at city speeds with the windows down - until the engine is good and hot. I'd like to run this fill out to 8k and don't want to dump it just to see if that's what's causing the tick. Has anyone else had the same thing happen with an M60 or its relatives?
Sounds like it is time for a 1000 mile run with Kreen. JMo
I'm about 4k into my first run of GC in my '94 530i's M60B30 and am getting moderate lifter tick - not loud but definitely noticeable at city speeds with the windows down - until the engine is good and hot. I'd like to run this fill out to 8k and don't want to dump it just to see if that's what's causing the tick. Has anyone else had the same thing happen with an M60 or its relatives?
Sounds like it is time for a 1000 mile run with Kreen. JMo
I should add that the engine ought to be reasonably clean. When I pulled the valve covers to do the gaskets last October there were only slight varnish stains on the top end and I also ran an AutoRx clean/rinse cycle with PBY 10w40. I pulled the filter last Saturday - top-load cartridge FTW - and saw maybe 4 or 5 specks of hard carbon but nothing I though was that out of place.
I'm thinking I'll just dump this for a run of Rotella 5w40 but it hurts knowing what 8qts of GC cost me and I didn't even get 5k out of it. That's why I'm putting out a feeler first.
I'm thinking I'll just dump this for a run of Rotella 5w40 but it hurts knowing what 8qts of GC cost me and I didn't even get 5k out of it. That's why I'm putting out a feeler first.
Quote:
When I pulled the valve covers to do the gaskets last October there were only slight varnish stains on the top end and I also ran an AutoRx clean/rinse cycle with PBY 10w40.
You could have some VARNISH in your Lifters that is causing the noise, or maybe auto-rx broke something off that is causing your Lifter Noise.
Quote:
I'm thinking I'll just dump this for a run of Rotella 5w40
This should clear up what auto-rx did not clear up, this Rotella 5W-40 has some good cleaning agents, see what happens and report back after 3000 miles or so.
When I pulled the valve covers to do the gaskets last October there were only slight varnish stains on the top end and I also ran an AutoRx clean/rinse cycle with PBY 10w40.
You could have some VARNISH in your Lifters that is causing the noise, or maybe auto-rx broke something off that is causing your Lifter Noise.
Quote:
I'm thinking I'll just dump this for a run of Rotella 5w40
This should clear up what auto-rx did not clear up, this Rotella 5W-40 has some good cleaning agents, see what happens and report back after 3000 miles or so.
Isn't the Rotella even thicker than the GC??
I couldn't stand the tick any longer. I dropped the GC today for RTS 5w40 + 4oz ARX. FWIW, and I know the accepted wisdom is that this means nothing, the GC was very dark. She sounds much better. I wonder if the GC sheared out so much - it's pretty thin to start with - and it couldn't bring the hydraulic lifters up on the first start of the day.
IIRC, the GC was in for about 6k. I plan to keep the RTS in for about the same which will bring me to the next even 5k on the odo.
IIRC, the GC was in for about 6k. I plan to keep the RTS in for about the same which will bring me to the next even 5k on the odo.
mini-update: Even though the top end looked okay there's a LOT of varnish on the bottom end. This engine will probably be loading oil changes with junk for quite a while. I guess it's safe to conclude that the PO's program of whatever 5w30 the quick lube had every 3k wasn't doing the job. Whadya know! Some engines really do need the higher spec'd stuff the engineers called for.
I vac'ed out the fresh RTS fill to check my oil pump bolts because the M60 and friends are known to have the bolts work loose. I would have done this with the fill but didn't have the lower pan gasket yet. There were three bolts in the pan which isn't too bad compared to the horror stories I've heard. Loctite should keep things in place for the rest of this engine's life. I'll be pulling the lower pan one last time (knocks on wood) tomorrow to reseat the gasket and will try to take some pictures.
I vac'ed out the fresh RTS fill to check my oil pump bolts because the M60 and friends are known to have the bolts work loose. I would have done this with the fill but didn't have the lower pan gasket yet. There were three bolts in the pan which isn't too bad compared to the horror stories I've heard. Loctite should keep things in place for the rest of this engine's life. I'll be pulling the lower pan one last time (knocks on wood) tomorrow to reseat the gasket and will try to take some pictures.
For reference the upper sprocket is on front end of the crankshaft. You can also see the front-most bearing and crank set. The varnish doesn't really seem to be hurting anything but as it sheds it does load up the oil quickly.
Originally Posted By: calvin1
For reference the upper sprocket is on front end of the crankshaft. You can also see the front-most bearing and crank set. The varnish doesn't really seem to be hurting anything but as it sheds it does load up the oil quickly.
I have a 94 530I with a M60B30 as well.
Did you get your issue resolved ?
What bolts (in the pic) are the one's the work loose of the oil pump ?
For reference the upper sprocket is on front end of the crankshaft. You can also see the front-most bearing and crank set. The varnish doesn't really seem to be hurting anything but as it sheds it does load up the oil quickly.
I have a 94 530I with a M60B30 as well.
Did you get your issue resolved ?
What bolts (in the pic) are the one's the work loose of the oil pump ?
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It didn't tick after I changed the oil. I don't think it was the GC that was causing the lifter tick but rather all the varnish that it was carrying around. I ran a change of RTS 5w40 for about 7500 miles and just recently dropped that for some M1 0w40.
All the bolts in the assembly are known to work loose. There are 4 large bolts (3?, can't remember for sure) that hold the pump to the block. You can clearly see one of these at 3 o'clock on the sprocket. There are also many smaller bolts that hold the two halves of the pump housing together. These are on the opposite side of the pump from the sprocket but you can see three of them at the lower right edge pointing away from the camera. If you've never dropped the lower pan you really should the next time you change the oil. It's likely some of the bolts are either loose or have fallen out completely. I cleaned up everything and put thread lock all around. Eventually the pump either comes loose and bangs around against the pan or the pump halves split enough to leak. Either way you immediately lose pressure. If you're careful the gasket can be reused so it's good peace of mind to have a look.
All the bolts in the assembly are known to work loose. There are 4 large bolts (3?, can't remember for sure) that hold the pump to the block. You can clearly see one of these at 3 o'clock on the sprocket. There are also many smaller bolts that hold the two halves of the pump housing together. These are on the opposite side of the pump from the sprocket but you can see three of them at the lower right edge pointing away from the camera. If you've never dropped the lower pan you really should the next time you change the oil. It's likely some of the bolts are either loose or have fallen out completely. I cleaned up everything and put thread lock all around. Eventually the pump either comes loose and bangs around against the pan or the pump halves split enough to leak. Either way you immediately lose pressure. If you're careful the gasket can be reused so it's good peace of mind to have a look.
Originally Posted By: calvin1
It didn't tick after I changed the oil. I don't think it was the GC that was causing the lifter tick
Cool. Thanks for the fast reply and info.
BTW, what is "GC" ?
Are you on www.bimmerforums.com ? Great website. The forums are broken down to specific models. Very helpful.
I'm Funk49 over there.... http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=133
It didn't tick after I changed the oil. I don't think it was the GC that was causing the lifter tick
Cool. Thanks for the fast reply and info.
BTW, what is "GC" ?
Are you on www.bimmerforums.com ? Great website. The forums are broken down to specific models. Very helpful.
I'm Funk49 over there.... http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=133
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Originally Posted By: Katmandu
Originally Posted By: calvin1
It didn't tick after I changed the oil. I don't think it was the GC that was causing the lifter tick
Cool. Thanks for the fast reply and info.
BTW, what is "GC" ?
Are you on www.bimmerforums.com ? Great website. The forums are broken down to specific models. Very helpful.
I'm Funk49 over there.... http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=133
GC=German Castrol, their 0w30 made in Germany that carries the Euro spec's like A3/B3 and BMW LL
To be honest my butt dyno couldn't tell the difference between the Castrol 0w30, Rotella 5w40 and M1 0w40. O'Reilly just ran the M1 on sale so I gave it a try but I'm not turning the miles right now to justify the cost. Unless there's a sale on somewhere when this change is up I'll probably go back to the Rotella because of the cost difference. The M60 doesn't seem to be nearly as picky about oil as other engines I've run. As long as you give it a sturdy oil like the three I've mentioned it will be fine.
I'm on bimmerforums too but I bring all my oil questions/info here.
Originally Posted By: calvin1
It didn't tick after I changed the oil. I don't think it was the GC that was causing the lifter tick
Cool. Thanks for the fast reply and info.
BTW, what is "GC" ?
Are you on www.bimmerforums.com ? Great website. The forums are broken down to specific models. Very helpful.
I'm Funk49 over there.... http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=133
GC=German Castrol, their 0w30 made in Germany that carries the Euro spec's like A3/B3 and BMW LL
To be honest my butt dyno couldn't tell the difference between the Castrol 0w30, Rotella 5w40 and M1 0w40. O'Reilly just ran the M1 on sale so I gave it a try but I'm not turning the miles right now to justify the cost. Unless there's a sale on somewhere when this change is up I'll probably go back to the Rotella because of the cost difference. The M60 doesn't seem to be nearly as picky about oil as other engines I've run. As long as you give it a sturdy oil like the three I've mentioned it will be fine.
I'm on bimmerforums too but I bring all my oil questions/info here.
Originally Posted By: calvin1
I'm on bimmerforums too but I bring all my oil questions/info here.
Cool. I just saw that I registered here in Oct 2005! I need to get out here more often! Lol!
I'm on bimmerforums too but I bring all my oil questions/info here.
Cool. I just saw that I registered here in Oct 2005! I need to get out here more often! Lol!
Ya know, everything actually submerged or bathed in oil looks really clean.
That timing chain and sprocket look like new, as does the oil pickup screen.
You can see the area above the oil level like a bathtub ring.
I don't think this engine is actually very dirty internally, and I don't think that GC caused your lifter tick.
It may not be as thick as T6, but I believe your car is back-speced to a BMW LL-98 or LL-01 oil, both of which GC meets.
UOAs have also shown GC to be very resistant to shearing.
Could the problem have been the oil filter you used with the GC?
I'm assuming you changed it when you put in the T6.
In general, if you suspect a cold flow problem, going to a thicker oil is not going to fix it.
That timing chain and sprocket look like new, as does the oil pickup screen.
You can see the area above the oil level like a bathtub ring.
I don't think this engine is actually very dirty internally, and I don't think that GC caused your lifter tick.
It may not be as thick as T6, but I believe your car is back-speced to a BMW LL-98 or LL-01 oil, both of which GC meets.
UOAs have also shown GC to be very resistant to shearing.
Could the problem have been the oil filter you used with the GC?
I'm assuming you changed it when you put in the T6.
In general, if you suspect a cold flow problem, going to a thicker oil is not going to fix it.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Ya know, everything actually submerged or bathed in oil looks really clean.
That timing chain and sprocket look like new, as does the oil pickup screen.
You can see the area above the oil level like a bathtub ring.
I don't think this engine is actually very dirty internally, and I don't think that GC caused your lifter tick.
It may not be as thick as T6, but I believe your car is back-speced to a BMW LL-98 or LL-01 oil, both of which GC meets.
UOAs have also shown GC to be very resistant to shearing.
Could the problem have been the oil filter you used with the GC?
I'm assuming you changed it when you put in the T6.
In general, if you suspect a cold flow problem, going to a thicker oil is not going to fix it.
I don't know but I've always used the same filter, whatever the Wix is for the M60. The filter wasn't loaded with sludge or grit when I pulled it after that run.
Also, keep in mind that what you are seeing in this thread is not the timing chain. That's the oil pump, which in the M60 and children is chain driven off the front of the crank. This is the lowest part of the sump and all the walls you see would be submerged all the time. There's another higher level to the sump that's farther back above the subframe. This lower pan by itself wouldn't be able to hold all 8 qts.
I do have another thread on the board that shows the top end not looking too bad if anyone's interested.
ETA: I'm not blaming the lifter tick it developed on the GC itself but rather all the garbage that was washed loose by the AutoRx. I'm sure that if I gave it another try it would do just fine.
Ya know, everything actually submerged or bathed in oil looks really clean.
That timing chain and sprocket look like new, as does the oil pickup screen.
You can see the area above the oil level like a bathtub ring.
I don't think this engine is actually very dirty internally, and I don't think that GC caused your lifter tick.
It may not be as thick as T6, but I believe your car is back-speced to a BMW LL-98 or LL-01 oil, both of which GC meets.
UOAs have also shown GC to be very resistant to shearing.
Could the problem have been the oil filter you used with the GC?
I'm assuming you changed it when you put in the T6.
In general, if you suspect a cold flow problem, going to a thicker oil is not going to fix it.
I don't know but I've always used the same filter, whatever the Wix is for the M60. The filter wasn't loaded with sludge or grit when I pulled it after that run.
Also, keep in mind that what you are seeing in this thread is not the timing chain. That's the oil pump, which in the M60 and children is chain driven off the front of the crank. This is the lowest part of the sump and all the walls you see would be submerged all the time. There's another higher level to the sump that's farther back above the subframe. This lower pan by itself wouldn't be able to hold all 8 qts.
I do have another thread on the board that shows the top end not looking too bad if anyone's interested.
ETA: I'm not blaming the lifter tick it developed on the GC itself but rather all the garbage that was washed loose by the AutoRx. I'm sure that if I gave it another try it would do just fine.
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As a resident BMW-aholic, and one who has experienced significant sludge in each engine currently in my stable (M52tuB28, M54B25, M62tuB44) as well as numerous other BMW engines, I can share anecdotes...
All 3 cars were bought used with fairly low miles and full service histories, including dealer oil changes that seemed to vary randomly between BMW Syn, GC, and M1. Most were 12-15k intervals, and a few changes were done at indie shops.
All 3 engines had sludge and varnish, a significant amount IMHO. As I did not want to add any miracle additives, I researched other methods and settled on one. This was with my 328Ci, the first one of the three I purchased. I knew it was going to become modified (although at the time, no idea HOW modified it would end up), and I wanted a "clean" start.
I went to the autoparts store and picked up 10x5qt tubs of Royal Purple (a mix of 5w30 and 5w40) and 12 K&N Oil Filters.
I ordered 10qts of Redline D4 ATF (trans and PS), 6qts of Redline 75w90 for diff, and 28qts of Redline 0w30 oil along with 8 AFE oil filters.
I did use a bit of Seafoam through brake booster, PCV, SAP, gas, throttle body (with manual cleaning), and about a total of 6oz in crankcase (6.5qt sump, for 200mi).
Dropped the oil while still hot, ran some PP for 500mi to ensure the Seafoam was out (did not know it was a good cleaning oil at the time), and then let that drain for 40min immediately after a 40min drive (plus the 5min cooldown to get it on jacks).
Did the following:
- 2k mile OCI with RP and hard driving, oil came out BLACK
- 2x 2k OCI with RP, changing filter at 1.5k (BLACK)
- 2x 3k OCI with RP, changing filter at 1k/2k (BLACK)
- 2x 3k OCI with RL, changing filter at 1.5k (not as black)
- 1x 6k OCI with RL, changing filter at 1.5k/3k/4.5k
After that, I have stuck to RP and Redline as even though I was modding the car during this time (thus it would sit for weeks without driving at bodyshop and such), when I tore open the engine for a bottom and top end bigtime upgrade prior to S/C install, there was literally not a single bit of sludge. It wasan aggressive way to treat the issue in terms of how many OCIs but at the time I did not know better. Could have had similar results with doubled mileage per OCI with same OF change intervals.
Still, it removed POUNDS of sludge and varnish from everywhere, and a boroscope showed the oil passages to be literally spotless. Granted, this was early in the car's life mileage-wise, but the results were astounding.
I have done similar with 325i, except longer OCIs (6-7k w 2 filters per OCI) and when I changed the valve cover gasket at 148k a few months ago, it was amazing how clean it is, especially considering mileage.
It still has a little ways to go, as the Oil Level Sensor has gone from Always On to only on for first 30-120s after cold start. Seeing as it completely cleaned my 328's OLS, I figure a few more runs is worth it before buying a new sensor.
Doing a teardown after 10k on 328Ci (10k after Ti valvetrain, Schrick cams, Mahle forged pistons, Carrillo forged rods, blueprinted/razor edged crank, ARP bolts everywhere, ported/polished head, custom Intake mani, ESS TS2+ TwinScrew SC+IC w customization, and more), to see how everything was holding up considering actually slightly higher than stock compression and a minimum of 16.5psi boost on 93oct street (22psi+ 105oct race), and dozens of track days and autocross events... All with RP or RL in the sump (capacity increased to approx 9qts due to baffled pan and SC plumbing)...
Every single part looked brand spankin new. To this day, I run the car like a madman and it has never once worried me.
Other oils may do as good of, or better, job cleaning, but the combination of cleaning and protection even under what constitutes several levels beyond "Severe Service" (abuse?) has me a believer.
It worked for me, it works for me, and I see no reason to change it.
Just wanted to relay my experience with Bavarian Sump-Gunk, and how I rid my cars of the stuff.
All 3 cars were bought used with fairly low miles and full service histories, including dealer oil changes that seemed to vary randomly between BMW Syn, GC, and M1. Most were 12-15k intervals, and a few changes were done at indie shops.
All 3 engines had sludge and varnish, a significant amount IMHO. As I did not want to add any miracle additives, I researched other methods and settled on one. This was with my 328Ci, the first one of the three I purchased. I knew it was going to become modified (although at the time, no idea HOW modified it would end up), and I wanted a "clean" start.
I went to the autoparts store and picked up 10x5qt tubs of Royal Purple (a mix of 5w30 and 5w40) and 12 K&N Oil Filters.
I ordered 10qts of Redline D4 ATF (trans and PS), 6qts of Redline 75w90 for diff, and 28qts of Redline 0w30 oil along with 8 AFE oil filters.
I did use a bit of Seafoam through brake booster, PCV, SAP, gas, throttle body (with manual cleaning), and about a total of 6oz in crankcase (6.5qt sump, for 200mi).
Dropped the oil while still hot, ran some PP for 500mi to ensure the Seafoam was out (did not know it was a good cleaning oil at the time), and then let that drain for 40min immediately after a 40min drive (plus the 5min cooldown to get it on jacks).
Did the following:
- 2k mile OCI with RP and hard driving, oil came out BLACK
- 2x 2k OCI with RP, changing filter at 1.5k (BLACK)
- 2x 3k OCI with RP, changing filter at 1k/2k (BLACK)
- 2x 3k OCI with RL, changing filter at 1.5k (not as black)
- 1x 6k OCI with RL, changing filter at 1.5k/3k/4.5k
After that, I have stuck to RP and Redline as even though I was modding the car during this time (thus it would sit for weeks without driving at bodyshop and such), when I tore open the engine for a bottom and top end bigtime upgrade prior to S/C install, there was literally not a single bit of sludge. It wasan aggressive way to treat the issue in terms of how many OCIs but at the time I did not know better. Could have had similar results with doubled mileage per OCI with same OF change intervals.
Still, it removed POUNDS of sludge and varnish from everywhere, and a boroscope showed the oil passages to be literally spotless. Granted, this was early in the car's life mileage-wise, but the results were astounding.
I have done similar with 325i, except longer OCIs (6-7k w 2 filters per OCI) and when I changed the valve cover gasket at 148k a few months ago, it was amazing how clean it is, especially considering mileage.
It still has a little ways to go, as the Oil Level Sensor has gone from Always On to only on for first 30-120s after cold start. Seeing as it completely cleaned my 328's OLS, I figure a few more runs is worth it before buying a new sensor.
Doing a teardown after 10k on 328Ci (10k after Ti valvetrain, Schrick cams, Mahle forged pistons, Carrillo forged rods, blueprinted/razor edged crank, ARP bolts everywhere, ported/polished head, custom Intake mani, ESS TS2+ TwinScrew SC+IC w customization, and more), to see how everything was holding up considering actually slightly higher than stock compression and a minimum of 16.5psi boost on 93oct street (22psi+ 105oct race), and dozens of track days and autocross events... All with RP or RL in the sump (capacity increased to approx 9qts due to baffled pan and SC plumbing)...
Every single part looked brand spankin new. To this day, I run the car like a madman and it has never once worried me.
Other oils may do as good of, or better, job cleaning, but the combination of cleaning and protection even under what constitutes several levels beyond "Severe Service" (abuse?) has me a believer.
It worked for me, it works for me, and I see no reason to change it.
Just wanted to relay my experience with Bavarian Sump-Gunk, and how I rid my cars of the stuff.
Of course that chain is driving the oil pump.
Another look at your pics makes that obvious.
I don't know what I was thinking, or not thinking.
If the lifter tick has passed, you may be right in thinking that a lot of residual deposits were loosened by your use of ARX.
Another look at your pics makes that obvious.
I don't know what I was thinking, or not thinking.
If the lifter tick has passed, you may be right in thinking that a lot of residual deposits were loosened by your use of ARX.
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