GF-4 Standard vs Ultra - Seq IIIG

[buster]

Ultra Seq IIIG

As you can see from the photos, Ultra is significantly better at keep the engine clean and deposit free. A great example of why better oils are often worth the added cost in higher performance applications. It's also why Mobil 1 is used in so many high performance engines.

My perspective has always been that Mobil 1 is average at best at preventing cam lobe wear, but excels beyond most all other oils in high temperature deposits. Ultra may have raised the bar here. (non boutique brands). Oils like Synpower, Castrol Syntec have been surprisingly poor in this area until recently when Synpower finally obtained GM 4718M (still no HTO-06). Amsoil & RL are both excellent, obviously.

One of the improvements for GF-5 will be high temperature deposits. The current standard is not that great IMO.



Seq IIIG is a high temperature wear and deposit test. Most of the tear down photos I've seen on here never show the pistons.

Two good photos of Pennzoil Ultra vs GF-4 Standard.

GF-4 Standard

 

[hisilver]

Is the gf-4 standard as bad as it can look to qualify for gf-4, assuming most do better than that at cleaning?

 

[buster]

From Pennzoil:

Quote:
The test used to generate the piston pictures is an industry standard ASTM test run in a real engine on a dynamometer at an industry-approved third-party lab. The two pistons were run in the standard Sequence IIIG piston deposit test, using the same fuel, the test hours and the same test conditions; the only thing that was different was the oil used to run the test. You can see a synopsis of the all of the industry test procedures online at www.SwRI.com.

 

[finalyzd]

Since I'm using redline. Will my piston be as clean as the ultra one

 

[daman]

Originally Posted By: buster
My perspective has always been that Mobil 1 is average at best at preventing cam lobe wear,

Disagree, depends on what formula your talking,regular flavor M1 yea...maybe, but there HM formulas or 0w40,15w50 you will get outstanding lobe protection.

and that piston pic i don't put any credibility in that at all, photo shop is a wonderful thing nowadays.

 

[sbergman27]

This being marketing for a new product that is being hyped out the wazoo, they almost certainly ran multiple oils and picked the cleanest side of the cleanest piston to represent PU, and the dirtiest side of the dirtiest piston to represent their collective competitors. I can just see them going over the photos late one night in the marketing offices discussing which ones to use. ;-)

Means nothing by itself.

 

[FL_Rob]

How could Ultra ,clean the area above the top combustion ring? what is this?Also there's no line at the rod cap,those are simulated rods.These are the pictures they show everybody or are they just the public release pics?

 

[tig1]

Buster,
I'm not buying the cam wear thing with any M1. I have never seen premature cam failure with any M1 oil. I do weld repare for two automotive machine shops(heads, blocks, etc.) and I have quized the ownners of these shops, that see zillions of cams, and they tell me M1 oiled engines are some of the cleanest and least worn engine they see. You might ask, Why are they working on good engines? Many reasons. Severe gasket leaks(coolant or oil), modifcations, valve seat replacement, etc.

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: FL_Rob
How could Ultra ,clean the area above the top combustion ring? what is this?


It doesn't really. That comes from an excellent ring seal. IF the seal is really good, you'll have almost no deposits below the head of the piston. This (ring seal) is accomplished by a proper break in procedure that includes accurate machine work/proper cylinder wall finish,no synthetic oil and heavy loading of the rings very early in the engine's new life.

I've seen this happen in my snowmobile engine, but the phenomenon isn't limited to 2 cycle engines. For more info about it, go to mototuneusa on the web and keep an open mind as it goes against what many think. Somewhere in there are pictures showing the same types of deposits or lack of them.

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: FL_Rob
How could Ultra ,clean the area above the top combustion ring? what is this?also there's no line at the rod cap.


Saw your edit..

The reason for not seeing a line at the rod cap may be because the manufacturer may be using a "fractured" cap. Basically, the rod is made, machined, then stuck in another machine that basically shears half the cap off. This makes a slightly jagged seam that resists walking or movement (squirming) under high stress loads when it is mated back together.

 

[FL_Rob]

Right,(most of my posts can be at times a little sarcastic just to keep things lively) thats what Im saying the pics dont match if the machine work is supossedly the same on the test engines,as no oil should be getting past the top ring ,therefore why the deposits?

 

[FL_Rob]

Just food for thought,Im not gonna get too far down the rabbit hole on this.

 

[rclint]

If I were pulling for Ultra I might say that the oil kept the piston clean by no high temp deposits on the ring (the lower ring) on the clean piston, the dirty piston lost oil control or had blowby from high temp deposits on the oil control ring creating the poor combustion seal above after a certain amount of time. However I try to keep an open mind.... so I do find it hard to believe that any oil comparing side by side pistons ran the exact same except for oil would give such a dramatic difference unless there was a problem to begin with. For example if the ultra piston come from a manufacture engine that was honed from the manufacture etc, and the dirty piston came from a rebuilt engine from local machine shops which can not hold a candle to OEM cylinder wall honing nor tolerance holding either... So there is still some unanswered questions.

I had Mobil 1 synthetic in a air cooled lawn engine, and despite all the clean things that are said about Mobil 1 it looked horrible with thick black crud on the pan, and a thick hard varnish in areas close to combustion/heat. HDEO oils in HD 30 look like new inside, with very little to no thick black goo in the center on bottom of pan, this is a air cooled engine keep in mind.

I do also agree with Buster about Mobil 1 lacking whatever it is to prevent cam lobe wear, I also remember the Mustang verses some other other oil ( I do remember it was a synthetic) that Mobil 1 clearly showed more wear than the other oil ran on the cam lobes. I also broke a small air cooled engine in on a cheap 30 weight conventional oil this was a new OEM motor, and mower, factor fill for 4 hours, then a sea 30 weight for a couple of hours for a rinse, then Mobil 1 5w-30 (it may have been 10w-30 been 4 years or so ago) the valve stem had some much varnish built up on them that the exhaust valve locked down. Just in case anyone thinks it was poor engine parts, or some manufacture defect I cleaned the valve up, actually straightened the bent pushrod out as well, put on a lathe to check runout, that same engine has run for years now as I still own it on HDEO straight 30 weight.

 

[The Critic]

How does SynPower measure up?

 

[Brons2]

Originally Posted By: FL_Rob
Also there's no line at the rod cap,those are simulated rods.


Many rods aren't made that way anymore, they are cast as a single piece and then broken. Much harder to tell where the line is when they do it that way.

 

[nucleardawg]

Somebody school me here on those pics....I am talking real life conditions though. In piston #2 we see the crud in the ring lands, and also on the piston body. In real life what would switching to Redline do to piston #2? Is it over time going to clean it to near like conditions as piston #1, or will there always be some residue of damage left?

 

[Johnny]

Red Line might clean up varnish and sludge, but it will not clean what you see on that piston. That stuff is baked on and the only thing that will take it off might be a grinder with a wire brush.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
How does SynPower measure up?

Probably better than the GF-4 standard, but not as good as Ultra. Somewhere in between.

 

[demarpaint]

Marketing and independent testing, two things I take with a grain of salt. I'd rather talk to people in machine shops that see engines torn down day in and day out and ask them.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Marketing and independent testing, two things I take with a grain of salt. I'd rather talk to people in machine shops that see engines torn down day in and day out and ask them.


This is good marketing though. A photo of two pistons run under the EXACT same conditions using a legitimate ASTM test. What more could you want?