Zerex Asian Vehicle antifreeze

[wiswind]

My only thought was if I could not find the Phosphate stuff as the OEM suggests......but I am sure that I can.
Thing is.....while I do a LOT of work on my own cars.....having read the instructions for changing the timing belt on the 2003 3.0L Sienna.....I would most likely have a shop or dealer do that job.....as it will be my only vehicle.
At that time....I would likley just have them replace the coolant......as it should work out on schedule with both being due around the same time.
One could do drain and refill on their own with no problem either.
My City has a drop off for used antifreeze and oil....so it is no big deal.
As you have suggested......I tend to stick with the OEM recommendations for a vehicle unless I can see a clear advantage not to.
Even a Dealer who charges full list for Toyota branded coolant.......it is still pennies on the dollar as to vehicle maintenance.

I have gotten over 217K miles out of my '96 3.8L windstar, which is rated as a not so reliable vehicle......the coolant is really clean in it...and the vehicle is still running just great.
The Toyota is rated as a reliable vehicle.....so I expect that I will have good service from it.

Like I mentioned above......we are splitting hairs over which coolant to put in a vehicle.......and just changing the coolant at least when recommended......Global, Dexcool, G-05 or Phosphated......we would all be far ahead of the majority of folks who ignore it....and don't change it at all.

 

[ponderosaTX]

Intac, the American subsidiary of CCI Corporation in Japan, changed its name to CCI Manufacturing IL Corporation in 2003. The English version of the web site for CCI Corporation in Japan is

http://www.ccijp.co.jp/en/index.html.

The web site for the American subsidiary is
http://www.cci-il.com which includes a page

http://www.cci-il.com/en/about/companyHistory.aspx

briefly describing the history of CCI-IL/Intac.

Ironically, it appears that CCI-IL manufactures most of the various antifreeze products being debated on this forum including Motorcraft, Zerex, Peak, Super Tech, many other private labels, nearly all of the Japanese OEM coolants (which use CCI coolant technology), and even some coolants for Mercedes North America. CCI-IL bought Dow Chemical's coolant manufacturing business in 1998. CCI's corporate mission includes dominating worldwide coolant manufacturing. They presumably prefer to manufacture their own coolant formulas but they can and will manufacture whatever formula a client company wants including Dex-Cool!

Note that all of the products that I listed above as manufactured by CCI-IL are produced in EXACTLY the same bottles. I searched for evidence of manufacturing facilities in the annual reports of some of the companies I listed (notably Valvoline/Zerex) and found no evidence of a antifreeze manufacturing facility. In contrast, Prestone and Havoline/Chevron (the inventors of Dex-Cool) use different bottles and do manufacture their own coolant (although Havoline/Prestone appears to contract with CCI to manufacture at least one of its peripheral coolant products, namely Havoline Custom Made Antifreeze, which is G-05!).

 

[mechanicx]

I believe there may be several manufacturers large and small of anti-freeze. I'm not really sure what all the relevence is anyway of who manufactures what. Here is a site that lists several manufacturers of anti-freeze. Old World is listed as a manufacturer and not just a supplier too:

Manufactures

 

[nthach]

I wonder if you can add a aquarium phosphate buffer like Seachem's Neutral Regulator or lab/reagent grade potassium diphosphate to water and then mix it with some Peak Global to "make" a POAT close to Toyota or Honda specs...

 

[Mr Nice]

Quote:
Even a Dealer who charges full list for Toyota branded coolant.......it is still pennies on the dollar as to vehicle maintenance


Yep. Thats why I am buying the Honda coolant concentrate and just mixing with water.

 

[mechanicx]

Does Honda's OAT even contain phosphates? I think Toyota's does, but not sure about Honda. I'm starting to wonder if Peak GL might not be the same thing as Honda type 2, but available in full-strength by the gallon. Does Zerex Asian even contain phosphates, I forget after all this anti-freeze debating lol.

 

[Sayjac]

Quote:
Like I mentioned above......we are splitting hairs over which coolant to put in a vehicle.......and just changing the coolant at least when recommended......Global, Dexcool, G-05 or Phosphated......we would all be far ahead of the majority of folks who ignore it....and don't change it at all.
+1 It's called common sense and it's more important than any promoted coolant agenda.

Once again, no where does Nissan mention in any literature that their branded coolant contains phosphate. I know, I own one, and the owners manual recommends their coolant (naturally), and key words or EQUIVALENT. The biggest descriptor used in their literature to describe Nissan branded is the word "Green", very scientific. lol. But certainly doesn't imply or indicate any phosphated coolant under any circumstance.

Also, Nissan recommends subsequent coolant intervals of 2yrs/30k, certainly no need for any extended life coolant, or worry with that interval. I have flushed my system twice now and used universal coolants, Prestone and now Peak LL, with no issues and a clean system for ~4yrs. Very reasonably priced and readily available in full strength. It's silicate and phosphate free, and has no absurd Nissan branded price for "green' coolant.

Depending on price and full strength availabilty, Zerex Asain may turn out to be a decent choice for Asian makes in the future. Right now, because of availability issues and lack of a full strength product, it just plainly impractical.

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Does Honda's OAT even contain phosphates? I think Toyota's does, but not sure about Honda. I'm starting to wonder if Peak GL might not be the same thing as Honda type 2, but available in full-strength by the gallon. Does Zerex Asian even contain phosphates, I forget after all this anti-freeze debating lol.

Honda green has phospahtes and no silicates, but I don't know what is in other coolants.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: artificialist
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Does Honda's OAT even contain phosphates? I think Toyota's does, but not sure about Honda. I'm starting to wonder if Peak GL might not be the same thing as Honda type 2, but available in full-strength by the gallon. Does Zerex Asian even contain phosphates, I forget after all this anti-freeze debating lol.

Honda green has phospahtes and no silicates, but I don't know what is in other coolants.


Yeah I guess Toyota and Zerex Asian has phosphates. Probably all of the OEM Asian coolants do and might be the same formula from the same supplier. The thing about Honda AF is different sources seem to suggest Honda's is just an OAT without phosphates.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Quote:
Like I mentioned above......we are splitting hairs over which coolant to put in a vehicle.......and just changing the coolant at least when recommended......Global, Dexcool, G-05 or Phosphated......we would all be far ahead of the majority of folks who ignore it....and don't change it at all.
+1 It's called common sense and it's more important than any promoted coolant agenda.

Once again, no where does Nissan mention in any literature that their branded coolant contains phosphate. I know, I own one, and the owners manual recommends their coolant (naturally), and key words or EQUIVALENT. The biggest descriptor used in their literature to describe Nissan branded is the word "Green", very scientific. lol. But certainly doesn't imply or indicate any phosphated coolant under any circumstance.

Also, Nissan recommends subsequent coolant intervals of 2yrs/30k, certainly no need for any extended life coolant, or worry with that interval. I have flushed my system twice now and used universal coolants, Prestone and now Peak LL, with no issues and a clean system for ~4yrs. Very reasonably priced and readily available in full strength. It's silicate and phosphate free, and has no absurd Nissan branded price for "green' coolant.

Depending on price and full strength availabilty, Zerex Asain may turn out to be a decent choice for Asian makes in the future. Right now, because of availability issues and lack of a full strength product, it just plainly impractical.


Once again I have to say I mostly agree with your common sense approach. While I might be a litle more leery of running a 2-EHA type antifreeze in a non-pressurized reservoir system, I do think the need for phosphates is questionable. Phosphates or silicates wouldn't really change the (aledged) nature of Dexcool. I think the key difference between Asian anti-freezes and dexclones is the particular OAT used. Asians clearly do not want silicates. This is all why PGL FS could be an option. I just wished we knew what OEM if any use the same formula as PGL. That would probably instill a great deal more of confidence in it, and just because PGL dosn't contain phosphate or silicate, that doesn't mean it would have the same negative potential of dexcool, namely sludging or gasket deterioation.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: artificialist
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Does Honda's OAT even contain phosphates? I think Toyota's does, but not sure about Honda. I'm starting to wonder if Peak GL might not be the same thing as Honda type 2, but available in full-strength by the gallon. Does Zerex Asian even contain phosphates, I forget after all this anti-freeze debating lol.

Honda green has phospahtes and no silicates, but I don't know what is in other coolants.


Yeah I guess Toyota and Zerex Asian has phosphates. Probably all of the OEM Asian coolants do and might be the same formula from the same supplier. The thing about Honda AF is different sources seem to suggest Honda's is just an OAT without phosphates.


Saturn Honda powered Vues came from the factory with Dexcool in them. I'm changing out my Dad's with a little over 90k on it this weekend with Peak Global lifetime.

Hundreds of thousands out there not running Asian coolant or Honda coolant.

I think this coolant stuff is a LITTLE overblown. I guess I'll find out.

Take care, bill

 

[Sayjac]

Quote:
Once again I have to say I mostly agree with your common sense approach. While I might be a litle more leery of running a 2-EHA type antifreeze in a non-pressurized reservoir system, I do think the need for phosphates is questionable.
I mostly have 'seat of the pants' experience with doing my own distilled water coolant flushes. Before aluminium blocks and heads(older systems),I used a Prestone flushing T.

That said, I have read this board for over a year now and have learned quite a bit. Like Bill, IMO a lot of this coolant decision controversy seems a tad overblown. The main ingredient most here seem to fear is 2eha, and that mostly because of some incompatabilty with some GM gaskets. I guess thats why I have little concern using a universal dexclone coolant like Peak LL in Asian vehicles. About 5 years experience using it in Toyota Tacoma and Altima, (both nonpressurized tanks) with no issues. I chose it because it is easy to find in full strength and reasonably priced, and the maker says it will work in my vehicles. I have no concern about phosphates or lack of them.

Next time if I can find it in full strength, I may try PGL, or now at Pep Boys, Peak Professional Lifetime and eliminate the 2eha. But, if I can't, I likely use something like Peak LL again, and as I've done, keep a reasonable interval.

If I owned a car the specs for G-05, like Ford or Chrysler, I'd use it. Semi-easy to find at a Ford dealer or Napa in full strength and not too expensive.

If I had a car that specs for Dex, I'd likely use it but not for 5years, more like ~3 years before cooling system service.

And again, the Zerex Asian sounds good if they get a full strength at a reasonable price.

 

[HTSS_TR]

I used Prestone All Makes and Peak Long Life concentrate coolants in 1994 Lexus LS400 with more than 240k miles without any problems, I flush the coolant every 3-4 years with Prestone T-flush with tap water.

I use Zerex G-05 in my 2000 MB E430, because it is equivalent with MB coolant.

I would use Zerex Asian in my 2004 Honda S2000 if they come in concentrate, otherwise I would use either Peak Global Lifetime or Peak Professional Lifetime. I just bought 2 gallons of Peak Professional Lifetime at $9.99/ea from Pep Boys and I may be able to get $9.99 rebate from Peak, so that the final cost is about $6/gallon after tax and stamp.

 

[Sayjac]

Why may get the rebate? In the PB circular it says manufacturers rebate. Like I said, I'd use Peak PL, sounds very decent and they make full strength. Reasonably priced even without the rebate.

I left out traditional green is my last post. If I had an older car that spec'd it and I could find it, I would not be afraid to use it. Might not last as long as G-05, but with a reasonable interval it should work fine, IMO.

 

[ponderosaTX]

If Old World Industries manufactures antifreeze, where is their manufacturing plant? If they manufacture their own antifreeze, why use CCI bottles?

Old World Industries only has 200 employees yet the company markets a vast array of products.

See

http://www.oldworldind.com/careers/index_careers.htm
http://www.oldworldind.com/careers/our_products.htm

The only way to structure that form of business (many products involving sophisticated manufacturing processes, yet few employees) is through contract manufacturing.

I raised the issue of contract manufacturing by CCI regarding Zerex branded coolants in another thread. In contrast to Peak coolants, Zerex coolants are marketed by a publicly traded company, namely Valvoline/Ashland. If you examine Ashland's annual reports (10 K's), those reports are carefully worded to avoid stating that Ashland actually manufactures antifreeze. Moreover, the list of Ashland plant locations in the reports does not include any sites that manufacture antifreeze. Based on the fact that Zerex coolants are marketed in CCI bottles and CCI is the dominant US contract manufacturer of antifreeze, there is strong evidence supporting the conclusion that CCI manufactures Zerex antifreeze products.

Unlike Old World Industries, Ashland does perform significant antifreeze R&D. The company has a substantial antifreeze patent portfolio. Nevertheless, Ashland has licensed BASF's antifreeze patent portfolio as the basis for most of their antifreeze products (BASF is the inventor of G-05 and many other Glysantin coolants). Ashland discloses this fact in their antifreeze product literature.

In contrast, Old World Industries aggressively markets Peak antifreeze products, claiming special patented formulas, yet they never list any specific patents on their products or on their web sites. Moreover, patent searches reveal that OWI is not the assignee on any US antifreeze patents. My best guess is that Peak Global Lifetime antifreeze is a variant on Dex-Cool technology that uses a different organic acid from 2-EHA. If you read the Dex-Cool patents, they are not 2-EHA specific; they list other possible carboxylic acids as substitutes. Other patent assignees (but not Old World Industries) have patented similar OAT formulations. Old World Industries presumably pays a patent licensing fee to Chevron/Texaco or a competitor for using their technology.

What is the significance of this analysis? Peak antifreeze products are not technological leaders. If you are looking for a Dex-Cool variant that does not contain 2-EHA, then Peak Global Lifetime (and perhaps some of their other products; who knows?) meets that criterion. But it you want products that conform to the recommendations of Asian and European automakers, look elsewhere. Tne Europeans generally recommend low silicate HOAT products while the Asians recommend phosphated OAT products.

 

[mechanicx]

Well regardless whether or not Peak is really a manufacturer or designs anti-freeze additive packages and holds patents, I still think Old World owns a business that manufactures ethylene glycol. On one of those links for Peak it states,

"We are a leading supplier to heavy duty OEMs for use at initial factory fill and in aftermarket. Our brands include Fleet Charge® Fully Formulated SCA Pre-Charged Coolant/Antifreeze and Final Charge Global Extended Life Coolant/Antifreeze, which delivers 600,000 miles of total cooling system protection with the addition of a single extender."

So according to that some OEMs factory fill with coolant they provide. Perhaps this Final Charge is Peak Global?

Anyway, I'm not trying to defend Peak. I've stated I preferred Zerex. The thing is Zerex has silicate G-05, phosphated Asian formula, and Dexcool, but they don't have a non-2EHA OAT. My understanding is that all of the Dexcools/dexclones do contain 2-EHA. I don't think it's fair to caracterize Peak global as similar to Dexcool just because it's an OAT without inorganics.

 

[Bill in Utah]

The bottom line for me is that as long as Zerex makes a coolant that is available ONLY as 50/50 they have lost me as a customer no matter how good the coolant is.

A 50/50 product is USELESS for anything other than topping off a vehicle.

 

[cos]

Bill,

50/50 coolants can be used quite effectively for those that do drain 'n fills to maintain their cooling systems.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: cos
Bill,

50/50 coolants can be used quite effectively for those that do drain 'n fills to maintain their cooling systems.


See I disagree. How can you be effective if you are only draining less than 50% if using a radiator drain and a little more using engine block drains?

I guess if I am going to do a task, I'm going to do it right.

Knowing the capacity of the system and using straight coolant allows accurate maintenance.

You are guessing and hoping for a 50/50 level with 50/50 mix.

Take care, Bill

 

[benjamming]

Bill,

It's no different than doing a drain & refill on the AT. However, you may not do that either I don't know.

How are you hoping for a 50% final mix when using a 50% mix? I don't get it. I start with 50% mix in system. I drain 50% of capacity. I fill with 50% mix. How can I not be left with 50% mix?