Would you buy a hybrid?

[The Critic]

You would be surprised at the size and scale of heat release and overpressure that a 1kWh metal oxide cathode Li-ion battery can put out.

I'm aware, but in comparison to a EV, it's miniscule.

Let's put it this way: municipalities, insurance companies and NFPA are revisiting sprinkler density requirements in parking garages due to the EV charging issue. This only happened in the last 2-3 years. Hybrids never got anyone's attention.

 

[Hermann]

0-60 isn’t driving dynamics and that isn’t that quick. The average vehicle is exactly that, average. Hybrid systems are just more weight that take away from agility no matter how you slice it. The lightweight integrated systems are in $1M cars and now the Corvette and new Porsche. I like the Maverick and all but you’re not going to sell it to me as my next GTI.


They were older. It’s not an attack on the Prius. I’m just saying it’s a system that ICE cars don’t have that may come up. One of them I know was a 1st gen, however old that is now.

after this response I'm out of here. You obviously have not driven a modern hybrid nor will you.

 

[Kira]

I wish the industry had adopted some kind of standardization for battery pack design.
Any "dropped designs" yet? I bet there are.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

I have yet to meet a taxi driver who regretted buying a hybrid.

Many have had them for years and have racked up very high mileage.

 

[Torrid]

after this response I'm out of here. You obviously have not driven a modern hybrid nor will you.

I think you misunderstand what I'm looking for. For similar reasons I wouldn't buy a modern performance BMW since they removed the dual clutch transmissions for standard automatics. Their argument is that the automatics are better than they've ever been. That may be true especially as a daily driver, but it takes away from the little aspects that make performance driving more fun.

I'm not looking for a big vehicle and no one is marketing performance small hybrids. I've driven many hybrids. They're great for appliance driving which vastly covers the market of buyers. I'm not an appliance driver though. For whatever reason I prefer fully engaged or fully electric. My biggest peeve is the stop start. I don't want to hear the engine turn off and on. I defeated this on my GTI, which for obvious reasons is much more noticeable and abrupt without an electric motor to start things off while it starts.

There isn't a benefit I'm going to see daily from a hybrid compared to my ICE car. They're cars regardless of what they're powered by that I'm not interested in the first place and more expensive. If I'm spending that extra money for a hybrid, I'll just buy another EV and plug it in. I'd have to get 80mpg to match the Model 3 for cost per mile where I live and none of them do that anyway.

 

[JHZR2]

I'm aware, but in comparison to a EV, it's miniscule.

Let's put it this way: municipalities, insurance companies and NFPA are revisiting sprinkler density requirements in parking garages due to the EV charging issue. This only happened in the last 2-3 years. Hybrids never got anyone's attention.

Hybrids also typically ran NiMH until the last few years. NFPA and others are not caught up to arc flash, battery implementation, etc.

 

[fdcg27]

Something to bear in mind is that HEVs typically keep battery pack state of charge within a very narrow range.
When you drive a hybrid the main battery constantly charges and discharges. Even a mild downgrade will bring extended EV operation at highway speeds while typical level running will show much less EV operation with little or none on an upgrade.
The net result is that HEV battery packs can have very long lives, not being subject to the large swings between charged and discharged that you'd see with an EV.
This makes for very long battery pack life in an HEV and the better EVs have the same.
It's all about battery charge and temperature management, with a Tesla at one extreme and a Leaf at the other.

 

[PandaBear]

I’m not there yet.

Toyota hybrids are proven to be exceptional, and I suspect the new Camry will be as well.

Guess I’m just too old to adapt to new technologies.

It has been out for almost 20 years already.

 

[Mechanician]

I'm aware, but in comparison to a EV, it's miniscule.

Let's put it this way: municipalities, insurance companies and NFPA are revisiting sprinkler density requirements in parking garages due to the EV charging issue. This only happened in the last 2-3 years. Hybrids never got anyone's attention.

That would be a great idea, if sprinklers would actually put out an EV battery fire.
But statistics, and real life data don't show that the fears are realistic. Politics as usual?

"Kelly Blue Book reported on findings from a study that shows EV are actually less likely to cause or be involved in fires than gasoline-powered or hybrid vehicles.1 Data from the National Transportation Safety Board showed that EVs were involved in approximately 25 fires for every 100,000 sold. Comparatively, approximately 1,530 gasoline-powered vehicles and 3,475 hybrid vehicles were involved in fires for every 100,000 sold."

https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/environment-energy-coordination/climate-matters/EV-less-fire-risk

 

[Snagglefoot]

I would think the Ford Maverick is one of the first vehicles where the cheaper purchase option is the hybrid system. The 2.0 Turbo is more expensive. Is this still the case?

 

[Torrid]

I would think the Ford Maverick is one of the first vehicles where the cheaper purchase option is the hybrid system. The 2.0 Turbo is more expensive. Is this still the case?

View attachment 229603

I thought the hybrid was the more expensive option, but I haven't looked in a while. At least when originally released if it's still not the case now, the hybrid was the only way to get AWD. I think it makes the hybrid the best option in case of this truck. I'm not a buyer for this vehicle, but it's the only one I'd want for that reason alone.

 

[PandaBear]

I don't see any benefit fuel wise vs the costly repairs they can incur. I was involved in the 900 series Tahoe/Yukon/Escalades when we offered the Hybrid. I learned so much from that project! I still get excited when I see one still on the road today! My shop actually had one come in because nobody else including their local dealership had anyone fluent in these. A customer told them about us and we got the truck and it was a 2009 and had 227lk miles. I was proud of that...it finally needed a new battery which was $3300 plus install. Not bad for the age and use. BUT a newer more advanced Hybrid has much more complexity and battery costs etc. So again - No I would not even consider one.

There are many types of hybrids. There're regular Prius type that has been proven very reliable (the most reliable car sold in US are Prius), then there's plug in Prius or Volt that are also very good if done correctly (although the traction battery would wear out like an EV over time, and expensive due to size, like a real EV), and then there's "mild" hybrids that are barely scratching the hybrid itch without doing anything.

The "mild" hybrid I have seen, some are just using a super capacitor (i.e. early Mazda) to store some small amount of charges in between stop and go, and would not be able to hold enough charges between downhill and uphill, it is almost a joke and it resemble more of a stop start system than a "hybrid".

I don't know what Tahoe / Yukon / Escalades have but if they are a mild hybrid it is a waste of money. If it is a real hybrid like the Prius then it should have an electric motor / inverter / battery that can support almost 1/3 to 1/2 of the total acceleration and deceleration need to be useful (for Tahoe that would probably be at least 100hp), and that would reduce the engine size need by the same amount, and the downsizing of engine would be the main reason for the overall mpg increase.

 

[GMBoy]

There are many types of hybrids. There're regular Prius type that has been proven very reliable (the most reliable car sold in US are Prius), then there's plug in Prius or Volt that are also very good if done correctly (although the traction battery would wear out like an EV over time, and expensive due to size, like a real EV), and then there's "mild" hybrids that are barely scratching the hybrid itch without doing anything.

The "mild" hybrid I have seen, some are just using a super capacitor (i.e. early Mazda) to store some small amount of charges in between stop and go, and would not be able to hold enough charges between downhill and uphill, it is almost a joke and it resemble more of a stop start system than a "hybrid".

I don't know what Tahoe / Yukon / Escalades have but if they are a mild hybrid it is a waste of money. If it is a real hybrid like the Prius then it should have an electric motor / inverter / battery that can support almost 1/3 to 1/2 of the total acceleration and deceleration need to be useful (for Tahoe that would probably be at least 100hp), and that would reduce the engine size need by the same amount, and the downsizing of engine would be the main reason for the overall mpg increase.

Good points and detailed explanations. As for the large GM SUV's they were full 2 mode hybrids with battery pack, motors etc. The electric only range was approx 30 miles at low city speeds and would run full full gas or a combo at higher speeds . It could also run both at the same time making it rather quick.

 

[PandaBear]

Good points and detailed explanations. As for the large GM SUV's they were full 2 mode hybrids with battery pack, motors etc. The electric only range was approx 30 miles at low city speeds and would run full full gas or a combo at higher speeds . It could also run both at the same time making it rather quick.

I was wondering, why did they stay with a 6.2L V8 if they are going hybrid? It seems like they didn't really downsize the engine much and if they go down to a 5.4 or 4.8 at least, it could have an even higher mpg.

 

[PandaBear]

I combined two thoughts into one post. Allow me to try again.

Engineering 101 says the more systems you have the more likelihood of a failure, assuming any one system can ruin you. Now it’s certainly possible to build all of the systems well. And it’s certainly possible to cost reduce over time. However, you’re still back to the more Systems you have, the more possibility something will go wrong either in design or manufacturing or assembly.

The second was a thought on hybrids. I’ve seen this through design cycles of other products as well. The first design group goal is to build a quality product that meets spec. I think the original Prius and many other hybrids were very over engineered and are excellent vehicles and this has skewed opinions. Since then they have all been cost reduced. And while that is also true of ICE vehicles, they have less systems to cost reduce. So your multiplying probabilities by opportunities, and there are more opportunities in a hybrid than in a ICE only system to screw up. Having spent a fair bit of time on the RAV4 boards, for example it seems the current generation hybrid has had more early issues than previous generation hybrids. Again it’s a forum so it’s anecdotal.

At the end of the day, it’s all about implementation. The two things I have noticed over time is people quoting reliability on hybrids that are like 100 K miles? I mean really no new car should have any significant problems in the first 100K Miles in my opinion. My second anecdotal piece of observation is that I have yet to find a professional mechanic that wants one. If your job is working on cars all day long the last thing you wanna do is work on your own so if they were ultra reliable, the mechanics would be buying up the used ones.

IMHO only.

In theory you are correct, but in reality "it depends".

A lot of engineering failures are from design being pushed too far to extremes and they failed in extremes. Things like a transmission that has to deal with too much torque, too wide of a range, engine that has to go too high in rpm, too much compression, too hot, etc. Often times the engineers have to design for the worst case scenarios and then work backward, then the design just sucks during normal usage as inefficient or too expensive.

If you design your hybrid with individual components having the same extreme usage then yes it would be worse in reliability than a gas only car or an EV. In reality however, a lot of the worst case scenarios in hybrids have been alleviated because the combinations of components just make lives easier for each components.

For example: gas engines in the hybrid don't have to run to the same redline as the gas car, transmission does not have clutch pack, electric motor help remove the power output requirement of the engine so it doesn't need as much cooling, they run atkinson cycles so they are cooler, they don't need to worry as much about engine braking as a regular car in a "street racing" situation, drag racing is done by battery / inverter / electric motor or at least reduce the stress by 1/3 or 1/2, CVT help keep the engine in the peak of the efficiency band, there is a huge electric motor(s) to help with cold start, etc etc.

Obviously it depends on who build it and how much they budget for, but if even Ford can be build reliable then you know there must be something that helps in the design. (I still won't buy a Fiat hybrid if they make one).

 

[ctechbob]

I thought the hybrid was the more expensive option, but I haven't looked in a while. At least when originally released if it's still not the case now, the hybrid was the only way to get AWD. I think it makes the hybrid the best option in case of this truck. I'm not a buyer for this vehicle, but it's the only one I'd want for that reason alone.

On launch the hybrid was the base powertrain, they have now flipped it to where the 2.0 Ecoboost is base and Hybrid is the upgrade.

Also, AWD is only available with full ICE, no hybrid currently.

 

[Torrid]

On launch the hybrid was the base powertrain, they have now flipped it to where the 2.0 Ecoboost is base and Hybrid is the upgrade.

Also, AWD is only available with full ICE, no hybrid currently.

It’s possible I do remember that backwards. I wouldn’t want this vehicle FWD personally.

 

[vavavroom]

If I were driving mostly in the city I would get a hybrid for sure. I find a hybrid a lot more acceptable than a full electric.

 

[Torrid]

If I were driving mostly in the city I would get a hybrid for sure. I find a hybrid a lot more acceptable than a full electric.

That falls squarely into EV for me. It's already rare for me to have to public charge as it is and it's our family car.

 

[vavavroom]

That falls squarely into EV for me. It's already rare for me to have to public charge as it is and it's our family car.

That's great if it works for you.