Will Thinner Oils Damage Your Engine?

[Zaedock]

I remember back in 2012 I kept hearing the new Ford 5.0 engines would "drop a piston" requiring engine replacement. What exactly did that mean?

I haven't heard of that but lingo changes all over the country. I imagine it was in reference to the knock TSB that affected '11 to '13 (maybe some '14's - have to read the TSB). My engine replacement occurred in Spring of '14.

I play drums and the knock sounded like someone was playing claves.

 

[LEADED]

Guess those in Dearborn don't consider the Coyote (which has timing chains galore and specs 5W-20 in CAFE driven USA) when they spec 5W-30 for vehicles.

THE Coyote is a different animal

 

[LEADED]

My family has four Fords with the Duratech 4 cyl engines. I had another one (2007 Focus with 175k when totaled). At present we have logged some 877K(miles) on them with M1 20 wt. oils. OCIs 10K. To date no internal engine problems including timing chains or guides. Also all engines are very clean, and show no signs of engine wear.

Duratech are not main street tech demanding on PCMO like turbo DTI .You can use olive oil in your application

 

[Gene K]

Okay who volunteers for the experiment?
New TGDI engine filled with 0W3 and let's see how long it last...

Does anyone make a 0W3 with detergent?

 

[4WD]

Duratech are not main street tech demanding on PCMO like turbo DTI .You can use olive oil in your application

That member you just got smart with has done 40 years of 10k OCI’s and Duratech did not exist for much of that.
What year did your “turbo DTI” come out ?

 

[Gene K]

THE Coyote is a different animal

They also spec 5W-50 for the Coyote with the same specified clearances (Track Pack Mustang) so I don't think it's particularly picky as long as it pumps on start up and the viscosity matches the ECM Failsafe Settings (Track Pack doesn't go into derate when 120C is exceeded, I believe it's 150C).

 

[Tom NJ]

Manufacturers of synthetics like Emery Industries' diesters (which became Hatco) formulated motor oils - in Emery's case "Frigid Go" - that would flow in extreme low temperatures since they lacked paraffins and could be more readily tailored.

Just for the record, Emery did not become Hatco. Hatco started in 1949 as a private chemical manufacturer in New Jersey and entered the synthetic lubricants field in 1953, manufacturing a diester for jet engine oils for Exxon (then Esso). It developed the first synthetic motor oil to achieve API and Military approval (SAE 10W-40, SE/CC) in 1972 and sold it for rebrand. This was followed by the first API approved synthetic diesel oil (SAE 30, CD), the first synthetic gear oil approved under MIL-L-2105 (SAE 75W), and the first synthetic 2-Stroke oil approved by the BIA. Being a small technology and manufacturing company, Hatco lacked the distribution and marketing expertise needed to sell directly to consumers, so all of its finished oils were sold to other oil companies for rebrand, except POE based jet engine oils which it sold directly to the US Military.

Hatco acquired Royal Lubricants and Anderol in 1997, and the the Hatco group was acquired by Chemtura in 2007. Chemtura was subsequently acquired by Lanxess in 2017. The Hatco ester manufacturing site is still in operation in Fords, NJ producing POEs and diesters, and Lanxess sells the products under the "Hatcol" brand..

 

[4WD]

Just for the record, Emery did not become Hatco. Hatco started in 1949 as a private chemical manufacturer in New Jersey and entered the synthetic lubricants field in 1953, manufacturing a diester for jet engine oils for Exxon (then Esso). It developed the first synthetic motor oil to achieve API and Military approval (SAE 10W-40, SE/CC) in 1972 and sold it for rebrand. This was followed by the first API approved synthetic diesel oil (SAE 30, CD), the first synthetic gear oil approved under MIL-L-2105 (SAE 75W), and the first synthetic 2-Stroke oil approved by the BIA. Being a small technology and manufacturing company, Hatco lacked the distribution and marketing expertise needed to sell directly to consumers, so all of its finished oils were sold to other oil companies for rebrand, except POE based jet engine oils which it sold directly to the US Military.

Hatco acquired Royal Lubricants and Anderol in 1997, and the the Hatco group was acquired by Chemtura in 2007. Chemtura was subsequently acquired by Lanxess in 2017. The Hatco ester manufacturing site is still in operation in Fords, NJ producing POEs and diesters, and Lanxess sells the products under the "Hatcol" brand..

Reminds me of an engineer I met at a party decades back. He worked for Texas Instruments. Told me his team developed a TV that was thin and lightweight and you’d hang it like a picture … Ever see a TI TV for sale ?
There are many great companies behind the scenes that don’t sell things at Best Buy or Walmart …

 

[wtd]

My '12 F150 5.0L also is quiet (see below*). I saw something regarding this engine shearing oil, but I have never experienced or heard of it.

There was a TSB however, for a periodic knocking sound that we had to deal with. The dealer could never hear it and said "it sounds just like the rest of the trucks on the lot". My wife then recorded it and went into full Puerto Rican mode on them. Needless to say, they had the whole shop listen to it the next morning and heard the knocking sound. The culprit - cylinder 3 was not round. It was a manufacturing defect. When the rings spun to a certain position, you could clearly hear it. The dealer ordered a new updated engine from Ford and I had a free F150 loaner until it was ready. That was at approx. 24,000 miles and I only have 70,000 miles on her. The new engine has been flawless and quiet.

Supposedly the 18 and 19's had a lot of problems with ticks and engine noises. I think for 20 they somehow got it resolved for the most part.

 

[Gene K]

I haven't heard of that but lingo changes all over the country. I imagine it was in reference to the knock TSB that affected '11 to '13 (maybe some '14's - have to read the TSB). My engine replacement occurred in Spring of '14.

I play drums and the knock sounded like someone was playing claves.

The ring lands were very close to the top on a hypereutectic piston (hard and doesn't expand much but easier to break than forged) and they ran very small ring gaps all of which coincides with latest theories in engine efficiency. Apparently their tolerances were to lax for the amount of heat they saw especially in one particular cylinder. The ring would butt and you would lift the top of the piston followed by bending then breaking the rod, damaging the block and often the crank.

This was especially common if the car was tuned or had a power adder.

My car has stock internals but I know I'm walking the ragged edge. On the strip it turns 7200 rpm but on the track we limit it to 6500 rpm. Both in deference to the oil pump gears and a marginal fuel system. I'm using the OEM Ford Airbox / Roush Lid-MAF Tube as a restrictor to limit fuel demands over 6500 rpm.

 

[Zaedock]

Supposedly the 18 and 19's had a lot of problems with ticks and engine noises. I think for 20 they somehow got it resolved for the most part.

Yep, just did a bit of searching. Too bad. Glad Ford addressed it. The engine overall is powerful for it's displacement.
Hopefully their dealers takes care of them.
In my case, it did take a bit for them to hear the noise, but they gave me a free loaner and it's been p!ssah ever since.
I brought my company '19 Ecoboost Escape to them when the engine went (sigh...) and they did an excellent job on the replacement.

My Ford's have been good overall, but it's taken a second engine to get there.

 

[IndyFan]

As an older guy around here, I remember the days when 5w30 became the popular recommendation from OEMs. People thought the cold viscosity was too thin and insisted on straight 30 weight or 10w30.

 

[Gene K]

As an older guy around here, I remember the days when 5w30 became the popular recommendation from OEMs. People thought the cold viscosity was too thin and insisted on straight 30 weight or 10w30.

I never thought that. I did think the conventional had to much permanent and temporary shear in addition to low HTHS to start with.

If I had been offered the equivalent of a modern GIII 5W-30 Synthetic HDEO I would have taken it in a heartbeat. Of course it wouldn't have been labeled a synthetic then.

As it was I would use 10W-30 Conventional or M1 5W-30 in those days for the most part if a vehicle called for 5W-30.

 

[PimTac]

As an older guy around here, I remember the days when 5w30 became the popular recommendation from OEMs. People thought the cold viscosity was too thin and insisted on straight 30 weight or 10w30.

I remember when I started using 5w30. I felt the same way but didn’t question the manual. Both cars using that grade went close to 400k combined before we sold them. I feel the same way now with 0w20. I have no worries running it.

 

[wtd]

Yep, just did a bit of searching. Too bad. Glad Ford addressed it. The engine overall is powerful for it's displacement.
Hopefully their dealers takes care of them.
In my case, it did take a bit for them to hear the noise, but they gave me a free loaner and it's been p!ssah ever since.
I brought my company '19 Ecoboost Escape to them when the engine went (sigh...) and they did an excellent job on the replacement.

My Ford's have been good overall, but it's taken a second engine to get there.

My Mustang is my first new Ford and only my second Ford overall. The drivetrain has been fine so far but I've had some paint and inside quality issues. My biggest issue with Ford is how they handle warranty work. Not impressed there.

 

[OilUzer]

The anti-friction modifier reduces friction between moving parts. My theory is that the big ends of the connecting rods (depending on the side clearance on each individual engine) are moving side to side and can impact the side of the crank journal and make a ticking noise. If the friction is reduced some, the rod ends many not get triggered to move side to side so much as the engine rotates. Just a theory, no hard proof to verify that.

The random Coyote ticking at idle sounds just like this - rod big ends slapping on the side of the crank journal.

I don't own a Coyote and just curious ...

Sometimes I do hear Coyotes late at night and very close and my dog's hair stands up and she puffs. Maybe she doesn't want to be the dinner but I've seen her chase deer, raccoon, rabbit, etc. and even a bear one time. She was on leash barking and pulling towards the bear and the bear didn't care and was standing up feeding at neighbor 's bird feeder.

if some parts are moving side to side and impacting the side of another part (crank journal), wouldn't that eventually lead to some scarring or other damages since we are talking about lots of miles and RPMs?

If someone takes apart an engine like that, would they be able to see the damage no matter how minimal and/or insignificant?

 

[MaDMaXX]

Alright, so let's look at a theoretical example here.

Coyote engine, not ticking, calls for 5w20, known to shear a lot(?) what conforming oil would be strongest against the shearing? and is a strong shear strength oil a good idea for it?

OK, so i worded that pretty badly in hindsight.

What i meant to ask was, considering the Coyote is supposed to be a high shear engine, what is a good 5w20 for standing up to that shearing? And will a 5w30 stand up to shearing any better than the 5w20?

 

[OilUzer]

In general at least you would have more shear room by moving up a grade.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I don't own a Coyote and just curious ...

Sometimes I do hear Coyotes late at night and very close and my dog's hair stands up and she puffs. Maybe she doesn't want to be the dinner but I've seen her chase deer, raccoon, rabbit, etc. and even a bear one time. She was on leash barking and pulling towards the bear and the bear didn't care and was standing up feeding at neighbor 's bird feeder.

if some parts are moving side to side and impacting the side of another part (crank journal), wouldn't that eventually lead to some scarring or other damages since we are talking about lots of miles and RPMs?

If someone takes apart an engine like that, would they be able to see the damage no matter how minimal and/or insignificant?

Depends on how sharp the Coyote's teeth are.

If the ticking was caused by the rod big ends slightly moving side-to-side and hitting the side of the crank journal, I doubt there would much evidence of wear because there are many parts inside engines that can make impact type ticking noises (ie, mostly in the valve train) but not show any wear of damage.

 

[ZeeOSix]

OK, so i worded that pretty badly in hindsight.

What i meant to ask was, considering the Coyote is supposed to be a high shear engine, what is a good 5w20 for standing up to that shearing? And will a 5w30 stand up to shearing any better than the 5w20?

Yes, shearing can be dependent on the oil VII and formulation. This is a UOA compilation of different oil brands and viscosities used in Coyotes. Take from it what you will.