Will Auto-Rx eliminate engine pinging?

[sifan]

After joining this forum I have installed bypass filters (for engine oil and transmission fluid), pre-luber, engine block heater, heat pads (for engine oil and transmission fluid), and tried LC, FP, MMO, Techron, SeaFoam, transmission fluid in gas tank except Auto-Rx on my engine. I was hoping for a long lasting car ownership. Some of them work great, some do not work as expected due to too much hype, and the rest I don't even know if they work at all.

After a 30K mile OCI with the bypass filter and M1 (TP replaced every 3k miles with 1 qt of M1 added) I realized the long OCI was a big mistake. I switched to 5k mile OCI with TP replaced at the end of interval. During the 2nd 5k mile OCI the engine was loosing performance. It turned out the air filter (only 8k miles) was very dirty. With a new air filter the engine performance improved some, but still not smooth. I then applied 4 cans of SeaFoam (4oz at a time) thru the brake booster hose consecutively prior changing the oil last fall (hopefully nothing got damaged inside the engine). The engine did regain its smoothness for few thousand miles. Now it is pinging around 1800 RPM. The pinging stops once 2000 RPM is reached. The 89/93 octane gas helps little but not much. In winter I usually got 39~40 MPG, now dropping to 36.

I just received 5 bottles of Auto-Rx, and haven't applied it yet (waiting for weather to get warmer). I am just wondering if Auto-Rx will eliminate my engine pinging. Or I should lower my expection on this product?

 

[biomed_eng_2000]

AutoRX will help the engine overall. However, if you are having pining problems, you likely have thick carbon deposits on your valves and piston tops.

You said you used Seafoam and FP..those should have cleaned your valves and piston tops well.

Does your pinging go away when you uses higher octane fuels?

 

[Quest]

If your pinging is due to mechanical/ignition/timing issues, or carboned up combustion chamber(s) then no, AutoRx wouldn't do anything for you.

Otherwise, yes, AutoRx may free up your gummed up oil control rings, increase compression.

 

[sifan]

No, the 93 octane gas eliminates some engine pinging but not totally. I guess I should have asked the question prior ordering Auto-Rx.

 

[sifan]

Can I apply SeaFoam during Auto-Rx cleaning phase since I am going to change the oil very soon?

 

[Spitty]

Wow, You have bought a lot of Gizmo's for that engine! I wonder if you can kill an engine with kindness?
I would be sup prized (after all those treatments) that you have a carbon problem, Has the engine been modded in any other way?
What engine is it and how many miles?
Are you sure it's a Pre-ignition Ping? I'm thinking Ping should not go away until Max torque has been passed! Will it Ping all the time, or only under full load? What do your Spark plugs look like? (colour)
I'm thinking it could be a timing chain or somthing making the Ping noise!

 

[sifan]

I donot know where the passion came from. I guess I just wanted to give each Gizmo a try instead of just listening to others' opinions on this forum. Now I wish I had kept it simple, and changed oil every 3k miles with M1 before the whole thing started.

No, it doesn't pinging all the time only around 1800 RPM for some reasons. When I replaced the spark plugs the first time at 50K miles, I did notice the top surface of pistons was covered with carbon which surprised me. The old plugs looked normal.

It is a Toyota Echo engine. I think this engine is too hard on oil.

 

[Frank]

It is not unique to ask however you have to realize we have "trolls' and they have no experience with your engine or the products you wish to use to correct your problem. Now lets get serious 1-Forget SeaFoam and Auto-Rx two chemistrys don't blend.
2-Don't worry about the weather(unless Auto-Rx is frozen solid than go to http://www.auto-rx.com and click on FAQ) add 1 bottle of Auto-Rx to a clean oil like Walmart Super Tec. Drive 2500 Miles than drain oil and change filter. Now drive with just clean Walmart Super Tech (no Auto-Rx or
SeaFoam) for 3000 miles Your now done with first application.

REPEAT THE ABOVE APPLICATION A SECOND TIME. E-mail me when your done. Please post your results.

 

[Rick20]

With everything that you have thrown at this unit, in short duration, I agree with Frank, regarding cleaning the internals out with a clean and rinse. To me it sounds like a timing issue that is causing the pinging. When you changed the plugs did you look to see if there was excessive carbon deposits on the piston crowns? I would think not based on the regiment that I think you performed. This echo should be designed to run 87 octane fuel, I believe. Running higher octane may be contributing to the problem rather than a band aid cure.

I would check the air filter again and also fuel filters, check timing and run the appropriate fuel and report back.

 

[ConfederateTyrant]

Before you try the Auto-RX, try water decarbing.

Get the engine hot, then use 1/2 quart of distilled water. With the vehicle in park, have someone inside with the engine revved to 2,500-3,000 RPMs and hold it there steady. Then pull your brake booster hose and slowly suck up some water (4-6 ounces at a time). Use the entire 1/2 quart of water, then re-hook the vacuum hose and take the vehicle on a 30 minute highway trip.

See if that fixes your pinging. From then on, perform regular maintenance on the fuel injectors.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Quest
If your pinging is due to mechanical/ignition/timing issues, or carboned up combustion chamber(s) then no, AutoRx wouldn't do anything for you.

Otherwise, yes, AutoRx may free up your gummed up oil control rings, increase compression.



I would also think (check my reasoning) that the underside of the piston would shunt more heat to the oil if it wasn't coke laden (which I assume that it may surely be).

 

[PW01]

Originally Posted By: ConfederateTyrant
Before you try the Auto-RX, try water decarbing.

Get the engine hot, then use 1/2 quart of distilled water. With the vehicle in park, have someone inside with the engine revved to 2,500-3,000 RPMs and hold it there steady. Then pull your brake booster hose and slowly suck up some water (4-6 ounces at a time). Use the entire 1/2 quart of water, then re-hook the vacuum hose and take the vehicle on a 30 minute highway trip.

See if that fixes your pinging. From then on, perform regular maintenance on the fuel injectors.


I agree with the water decarb idea. But forget the Auto Rx? Auto Rx addresses a completely different problem. You bough some Auto Rx, use it and enjoy the benefits!

 

[Craig in Canada]

I'll add to the advice, just for kicks.

ARX will do good things, but I don't think it is the solution for a pinging problem.

You first need to determine if you have a real problem:

- has your timing slipped too far advanced?

- have your knock sensors stopped functioning properly?

- is your engine running really rich, exasperating the carbon build up situation? Check O2 sensors. You mentioned you had other performance problems...

- are you using the proper factory-spec heat range of spark plugs for your application? If your plug is too "hot" it can cause pinging. Even if you are using the correct heat range, you could go one range cooler to see if it helps. Plugs are cheap, pistons are not. The bottom line is you shouldn't need to deviate from the factory plug spec unless you're at very high altitudes or something... (are you?)


You also need to look at your habits:

- do you lug this engine around at low revs in the city? Get the revs up and clean it out! "old lady syndrome" will cause lots of cars to suffer carbon build up, especially combined with a mechanical problem. Don't lug it - EVER - and get the revs up once in a while. I don't know if this is an automatic or a manual...

- a dirty air cleaner would result in an overly rich mixture. How did the air cleaner get so dirty that it restricted engine performance before you noticed? Stop looking for potions to pour in and make sure that you have your routine maintenance in order. Thinking that the echo is "hard on oil" isn't going to cause pinging, clogged air filters etc...

If your pinging is indeed a result of carbon buildup, that is a combustion chamber problem. ARX goes in the oil. How much oil contact is there in the combustion chamber? Hopefully very, very little. You need to work through the fuel and air system to clean up this problem or pull the head and remove it mechanically. Steam cleaning is an old school method that still works. The Seafoam method should have worked for you but it sounds like the problem returned - this comes back to habits and mechanical condition. You could consider a long-term fuel additive like Lucas UCL or FP-Plus once you determine you don't have real mechanical issues. This should keep the fuel system clean and help keep carbon buildup in check.


1. figure out if there is some reason - mechanical, habitual, or environmental - that is causing your engine to accumulate carbon build up faster than it should. Fix it.

2. perform any other basic maintenance (air and fuel filters etc...)

3. Clean out with seafoam or water injection.

4. change the oil (water or seafoam dilution possible). Add ARX if you want (still does good things). Consider a long-term fuel additive.

5. Don't ever lug the engine and try to get the revs up once in a while.


Good luck, keep us updated.

 

[sifan]

My Echo engine has 75K miles with no engine modifications for performance what so ever (I want it to last).

I replaced the plugs at 50K miles (Toyota recommends at 60K miles). The old plugs have no carbon buildup, and their tips are white. All I know is that the top of pistons was coated with carbon thru the plug holes. I was surprise to see that because I dumped a quart of transmission fluid in the gas tank twice after reading a thread on this forum prior replacing the plugs. I installed a new set of plugs that I bought from the dealer. I assume the heat range should be identical to the factory one.

I routinely maintain the engine by replacing PCV every 10K miles and air filter every 10-12K with MAF cleaning, flushing the radiator every 15K, replacing power steering fluid every 15K, replacing TP for transmission bypass filter every 5K with 1 qt of fresh Toyota Type IV fluid, using Techron every 1500 miles, cleaning TB every 3K, etc. I am not sure why the air filter was so dirty only after only 8K miles. Last night I checked the air filter with 8K miles which looked OK, but I sill replaced it and cleaned the MAF.

I think I am a victim of "old lady syndrome". I drive 35 mile to work mostly through suburb area. I accelerate slowly (lugging the engine without knowing it) in order to save fuel and reduce engine wear. The Echo is the first new car I ever own (my parents paid for it), and I want to baby it. After driving the handed down old cars from my parents and relateives and getting stranded on the roadside so many times due to car mechanical issues I determine to do all the preventive maintenance I can possibily on my first new car. It is heartaching to see the engine performs so poorly after all the effort and money. I under-estimate the carbon buildup due to "old lady syndrome" believing the bypass filter and fuel additives can prevent it.

I just applied SeaFoam to my engine this morning, and will keep doing it till I get the engine performance back. I will stop driving like an old lady from now on. Thanks for the advise.

 

[Craig in Canada]

White plugs MIGHT indicate a lean condition. Proper mixture should result in "tan" coloured plugs in my experience, but many say that white is within normal range as well. I believe lean running can cause pinging all by itself, but doesn't cause carbon buildup. Some carbon on the tops of pistons in inevitable, you need to determine if it is heavy carbon buildup resulting in increased compression which is causing the pinging or something else. Google found me this on reading plugs if you haven't already read something like this.

Lean conditions can result from air leaks (you sure that MAF is sealed right? How about the vacuum hose you disconnected to use Seafoam?), O2 sensors, a poor match of oxygenated fuel type for your engine etc...

On plugs - the issue isn't how often they are replaced, but if they are the exact right heat range that the manufacturer specs.

On old lady syndrome... If you have an automatic, you probably aren't able to lug it badly. The "lugging" I'm referring to is attempting high power output at low RPM. That will wreck your crank bearings and cause all kinds of other issues. It's been called the worst single thing you could do to an engine. The pistons need to be moving at some velocity to function properly when asked to work hard. Let the engine wind out a little while accelerating. Floor it on a highway on ramp once a week - that kind of thing.

Saving fuel is a fantastic idea. Not lugging the engine and keeping the revs up from time to time doesn't mean you need to drive fast or recklessly. It means don't shift too early while accelerating, maintaining speed up a hill or any other situation which demands significant power output from the engine relative to its capabilities.

Taking pride in ownership is also fantastic. Many a well-intentioned person has done more harm than good because they think a habit of theirs is better for their vehicle when in fact it causes harm. "Old lady syndrome" may be one of these habits depending on how bad you've got it

If your plugs are white, you might have an unacceptably lean running condition. You need to determine if your ping is due to increased compression from carbon buildup, or something else like running lean. Only then can you determine how to fix it. Double check anything you've touched in the air intake system for leaks.

Is this a manual or automatic transmission?

 

[Rick20]

Sifan,

White spark plug tips are normally an indication of a lean fuel/ air mix. A light chocolate color would be the norm, or optimal in most cases. Have you looked at the fuel filter(s) for possible restriction in fuel flow?

Secondly, although ARX does not address pinging directly, it can have a cause and effect remedy. Stuck ring packs from dogging the motor may have fouled up the ring packs, resulting in poor combustion. This may lead to excessive carbon build up on the piston crowns leading to undesireable fuel detonation.

Ring pack cleansing occurs pretty quickly running a cleaning dose of ARX, normally in the first 500-750 miles. Good ring to wall sealing is the first step in turning this motor around. Proper tune up settings, with regards to ingition timing, and fuel/air flow contribute as well.

Check out the fuel filters, add a bottle of ARX, and run some highway miles and see if this doesn't help.

 

[sifan]

It is an automatic. I usually keep the engine running below 2000 RPM to reduce wear.

After cleaning the MAF I screwed it back tightly every time.

The Echo is equipped with a so-called "lifetime" fuel filter (according to Toyota) located in the fuel tank. I haven't replaced it yet, but I think it is a good idea. I bought the parts from the dealer few years ago planning to replace it myself at 60K but never get to it.

I will try Auto-Rx after I am done with SeaFoam.

Thanks.

 

[Quest]

Now sifan,

As much as I want you to baby your car, obviously you have overdone it:

-why dump 1 quart of transmission fluid into your gas tank???!?

-and now you insists in doing seafoam via vacuum booster line until performance comes back????

STOP BEFORE YOU IMPOSE MORE DAMAGE TO YOUR VEHICLE!!!!!!

(1) unless you are dealing with something seriously wrong/bad to begin with, otherwise, what on-earth gives you the idea of adding trannie fluid into gas tank to begin with? As an upper cylinder lube??! Don't you know that adding something similar to ATF into your gas tank will not only skewed the O2 sensor readings but also because ATF is of thicker, inflammable oil to begin with, it's going to leave carbon in your combustion chamber???!??

(2) continuously running seafoam until performance comes back?! Now, that's another step towards the wrong direction for you for your addition of seafoam is going to cause motor oil contamination/dilution...and the thinning out of your motor oil may cause bearing issues if left over an extended period of time.

What you shall seriously consider doing is as follows:

(a) stop all your crazy aftermarket add-ons and things that you heard from urban legends, housewives tales about cars and engines, and take your vehicle out on an extended highway run. A repeated 6hr highway run @ speeds of 100kms/hr continuously will provide an optimal operating tempurature in the combustion chamber to effectively burn off all the accumulated carbon deposits (due to your addition of ATF in gas tank, and whatever in the past).

(b)drive your vehicle normally as any avg joe would, and don't waste too much time dwelling on how to maintain cleanliness inside your engine. For if you want your engine healthy, reliable and long-lasting, you shall not need to add any additives of any kind in such frequent basis...

(c) read up on all the past mechanical sections on mechanial issues, and feel free to ask any seasoned posters that are also involved in mechanical repairs (as their professions, such as mechtech, acuratech, etc.) for advise.

Chill and get driving.

Q.

 

[Quest]

small engine such as the one in Echo, has to run above 2000rpm in order to mantain sufficient torque and also minimise possibility of lugging your engine (lugging engine due to too low of rpm, will lead to premature low end bearing wear). You shall let the engine and the computer take over your driving habit and if it calls for past 2500rpm to maintain your speed, then might as well do it. Don't play Gawd on these engines for even though they are fairly cheap and easily attainable from wreckers, it doesn't necessary mean that you shall "abuse" it that way (they are not diesel engine you know)

Q.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: Quest
Now sifan,

As much as I want you to baby your car, obviously you have overdone it:



I agree, cool it with the additives. There's no way you should need that much seafoam. Additives themselves can cause all kinds of problems, especially when over-used.

You are not causing excessive wear by exceeding 2000rpm. With the displacement on the echo you need to be above 2000 on a regular basis. My 2.8L w/ manual trans is rarely BELOW 1800-2000. As someone said - they aren't diesels. They simply can't make useful power without lugging (and damage) that low. Maintaining steady speed when straight and level is a different story.