Why won't Lena Dunham go away and leave us alone?

[javacontour]

Men and women are different, full stop. Don't blame men for the difference in genetics. Men are stronger and able to take more punishment.

Those are the facts on the ground. Hoping and wishing things were different doesn't solve the problem.

The following appeared from a friend in my Facebook feed. I think it spells out what many of us are saying here.

http://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/10/dear-drunk-girl/

Some, wrongly, claim this is S--- Shaming. Not really. It's an observation of the behaviors seen and the risks associated with those behaviors.

No one is saying these things should not happen. The reality is they do. Wishing and hoping they didn't or wouldn't is not as effective as some proactive self control and situation awareness.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
It's not "blaming the victim" (another battle cry of the American feminist), it's "expecting adults to take responsibility for themselves and their own choices."

In what sense are you implying anything other than that drunk women are choosing to be raped?


Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
We used to advise young women to watch where they went and to avoid dangerous areas and situations. If we try to do that now, we get the screams of "We can walk where we want! We can get as drunk as men do! Don't try to tell us what to do!"

It always blows me away how often men can say with a straight face that women should not expect the same degree of freedom of movement and dress as men can.

 

[javacontour]

Yes because no man has ever been fooled into marriage by a woman claiming to be pregnant with his baby. Nor have men been betrayed by unfaithful wives and forced to pay support for a child that isn't his.

Never do such things forced on him, without his consent or knowledge.

Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I saw it both ways as an officer in the Army. I saw cases where a female soldier was raped. I also saw cases where a female soldier, mad that a male wouldn't pay her any attention, decided to get even by claiming he raped her.

There is no moral high ground based on gender. Bad character and/or bad decision making skills are not unique to one gender or the other. They are equally represented by both genders.

Women have the most to lose when they have poor decision making skills and come into contact with men who have bad character. A woman who chooses to go out and get drunk without someone with a clear mind looking out for her is making a poor choice. She is adding unnecessary personal risk to an already generally risky world.

Turn the genders around and it's the same. A man with bad decision making skills encounters a woman with poor character and he could be paying her for many many years if she manages to get him to marry her, have some kids and then decides to leave because she wants a payday. If he doesn't learn how to evaluate others, or get an impartial check from his trusted friends, he may find he is guilty of adding unnecessary risk to his already risky world.

The bottom line is, as I've suggested with the above hypothetical cases above, bad character is something that isn't unique to men. Neither are bad choices.

We can all cite wrongs that need to be righted. At the same time, we have to live in the world as it is. Hoping things were is no defense against an imperfect world. Neither is ignoring the reality of the current state of affairs.


That hypothetical analogy might have made more sense if you said the man was forced into marriage, without his consent / against his will and knowingly.

"if she manages to get him to marry her" - is there an unknown epidemic of this going on?

 

[whip]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
This thread is like a gauntlet! I'm getting beaten by everybody here!


But I am the "bad poster who writes bad posts"???

I'm glad someone else sees the contradictory ignorance he's posting.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
There are very nasty and vicious elements in all human societies -- less of them in America than in other societies, at least until recently -- who love to prey on women. Women, generally speaking, are weaker in bodily strength than the general run of men. Add to that the fact that the nasty and vicious elements are willing to use weapons, and the conclusion is simple: Women should be more careful. (Again, we used to know this in the Western world, and taught girls this.)

In most other areas of society and law in the free world, the people with the propensity to commit crimes -- not the potential victims -- are the ones whose movements we try to limit. Given that, your line of reasoning should lead us to restrict MEN's movements, not women's.

I think either outcome is ridiculous. The one you're advocating is more so, even on the basis you adduce.

 

[Mr Nice]

Women need to keep it closed and not give away to any guy that wants it....

Nightclub / Bar - pump N dump.

 

[javacontour]

I don't think anyone is trying to LIMIT what women do. If they want to go out and get blackout drunk, they are still free to do so.

But there are real consequences to such behavior. To ignore that reality is to be naive.

In high school and college, I drove many a drunk girl home to protect her from what may happen should another encounter her in such a vulnerable position.

It's not a good idea for anyone, male or female to get blackout drunk. The risks are different for men and women. But in no way is it a safe behavior for anyone.

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
There are very nasty and vicious elements in all human societies -- less of them in America than in other societies, at least until recently -- who love to prey on women. Women, generally speaking, are weaker in bodily strength than the general run of men. Add to that the fact that the nasty and vicious elements are willing to use weapons, and the conclusion is simple: Women should be more careful. (Again, we used to know this in the Western world, and taught girls this.)

In most other areas of society and law in the free world, the people with the propensity to commit crimes -- not the potential victims -- are the ones whose movements we try to limit. Given that, your line of reasoning should lead us to restrict MEN's movements, not women's.

I think either outcome is ridiculous. The one you're advocating is more so, even on the basis you adduce.

 

[Mr Nice]

Unfortunately some men are always looking for an easy piece of female [censored].
And drunk women are easy targets.

 

[Apollo14]

So as a society which should we focus more on?

A) Encourage women not to drink too much? What % of focus on this?

B) Encourage men not to take advantage of drunk women? What % of focus on this?

Which of these is the bigger problem? Which is more wrong?

 

[javacontour]

The real question is which do women have control over?

The answer is we can only control our own actions. While it would be great to be able to control others in some circumstances, it's far preferable to take responsibility for those things we can control, which is our own behaviors and responses to circumstances.

Since it's unwise to count on others to be in control of themselves when I'm at my worst, the best thing to do is avoid being at my worst.

Being blackout drunk is a totally avoidable state. It's something we all have control over. We can choose not to drink, or at least not to drink until we pass out.

Originally Posted By: Apollo14
So as a society which should we focus more on?

A) Encourage women not to drink too much? What % of focus on this?

B) Encourage men not to take advantage of drunk women? What % of focus on this?

Which of these is the bigger problem? Which is more wrong?

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
I don't think anyone is trying to LIMIT what women do.

Benzadmiral is:
Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
It always blows me away how often men can say with a straight face that women should not expect the same degree of freedom of movement and dress as men can.

They should not.


But I'm sure he's just an anomaly. The rest of us are just saying that women should expect to be violated if they do XYZ. That's nothing like calling for limits on their behavior.

Sweet. Excuse me while I go punch someone and then explain to them that their face just happened to be momentarily spatially colocated with my fist. I'm sure they'll understand that that's nothing like being punched.

 

[Apollo14]

When the shoe is on the other foot, in any aspect of life, I'm sure these same people will accept the explanation that they should have expected it.

So I expect no complaints from the same people on any number of topics:

- "My boss is difficult" - well what do you expect if you want a job?

- "Someone cut me up in traffic" - well don't go out when it's busy, what do you expect?

- "Police have a difficult job and should have more protection against civil rights lawsuits" - well what did they expect when they decided to become law enforcement?

- "Soldiers suffer from stress issues when they come back from war and don't get enough help" - well what did they expect when they joined the army?

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Being blackout drunk is a totally avoidable state. It's something we all have control over. We can choose not to drink, or at least not to drink until we pass out.


Sadly, in THIS society/culture/country, many (most??) do NOT seem to be able to make THAT choice.

Since alcohol consumption, (and for some the resultant alcoholism), seems to be the not just accepted 'norm', but is actually EXPECTED/ENCOURAGED, to the point of; ostracism, thinking something is wrong with the abstainer, and labelling them "not a man", or in this case "not a woman".

But yes, this is a topic for a whole other thread.

 

[TooManyWheels]

Originally Posted By: L_Sludger

This thread has gone horribly wrong!


You were envisioning some other path?

 

[javacontour]

They shouldn't expect that. Not because women don't deserve it. They shouldn't expect that because it goes against the reality of what the world is today.

It's like saying don't expect to win the lottery. Not saying you can't or won't. Simply saying it's an unrealistic expectation.

You can expect anything you want, male or female. The reality of those expectations are often very different.

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I don't think anyone is trying to LIMIT what women do.

Benzadmiral is:
Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
It always blows me away how often men can say with a straight face that women should not expect the same degree of freedom of movement and dress as men can.

They should not.


But I'm sure he's just an anomaly. The rest of us are just saying that women should expect to be violated if they do XYZ. That's nothing like calling for limits on their behavior.

Sweet. Excuse me while I go punch someone and then explain to them that their face just happened to be momentarily spatially colocated with my fist. I'm sure they'll understand that that's nothing like being punched.

 

[jhMalibu]

This thread answers the question of why there aren't more females on BITOG.

 

[Apollo14]

^ it certainly doesn't help, but I don't think it's by any means the major reason.

 

[d00df00d]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the dominant cause is that people generally are taught that car stuff is man stuff and not woman stuff.

The misogyny can't be helping, though.

 

[Thermo1223]

Originally Posted By: jhMalibu
This thread answers the question of why there aren't more females on BITOG.



Are there more females on a Ford Truck Forum?

Do you see more males sitting in a hair salon gabbing it up?

Are there more females working at Pepboys?

Are there more males working as candy stripers?

This thread doesn't answer that and honestly no one discussion ever will.

If anything it just shows how blind some can be with regards to gender specific actions. If people put themselves in a vulnerable situation with little regard for the outcome then IMO they deserve exactly what they get, plain & simple.

Be proactive, be responsible, be aware for your sake not society's.

 

[javacontour]

I wouldn't say they deserve what they get.

No one deserves to be mistreated.

I believe it is more accurate to suggest they should not be surprised by such an outcome.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
I wouldn't say they deserve what they get.

No one deserves to be mistreated.

I believe it is more accurate to suggest they should not be surprised by such an outcome.

Then I suggest that you gain nothing for yourself by appearing on the side of people whose knee-jerk reaction to a rape is "she should have done XYZ."

What you describe here -- which I desperately hope is a more accurate reflection of your opinion than what you've written earlier -- is a reasonable reaction. Reflexively throwing responsibility for rape back on the victim is not a reasonable reaction.