Why run a 0-20 instead of a 0-30 Oil?

[ZZman]

It seems like the 0-30 oils have a stronger add pack and the gas mileage difference should not be much different.

It would seem like the 30w would offer better part wear protection as well.

M1 0-20:

2.7 HTHS
8.8 TBN


M1 0-30

3.0 HTHS
9.1 TBN

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: ZZman
It seems like the 0-30 oils have a stronger add pack and the gas mileage difference should not be much different.

It would seem like the 30w would offer better part wear protection as well.

M1 0-20: M1 0-30

2.7 HTHS 3.0 HTHS
8.8 TBN 9.1 TBN



Your assumption is based on M1?

 

[OldCowboy]

"As thin as possible, as thick as necessary."

Those differences in TBN are not significant and have nothing to do with wear protection.

 

[ZZman]

Amsoil Sig

0-20

2.8 HTHS
12.6 TBN

0-30

3.1 HTHS
12.6 TBN

Pablo: Is the add pack the same or better in Amsoil's 0-30?

 

[ZZman]

Doesn't a higher HTHS equate to better wear protection?

 

[sciphi]

Well, run a 0w-20 to preserve powertrain warranty. Let Toyota/Honda deal with any failure related to the oil.

 

[OldCowboy]

Originally Posted By: ZZman
Doesn't a higher HTHS equate to better wear protection?


Better is a relative term. If your engine requires an HTHS of 2.7 for good protection, using an oil with an HTHS of 3.0 may not provide better protection.

Motor oils are extremely complex mixtures. Wear protection is provided by both the base oil and additives. The data provided by oil manufacturers/blenders really don't provide enough information to determine wear protection.

For instance, one oil has a moly level of 200 ppm and another has a moly level of 50 ppm. The oil with 50 ppm may actually provide better protection because the moly that blender uses is a superior moly.

 

[bepperb]

The add pack would likely be identical. HTHS has nothing to do with the additive package. The TBN of virgin oil really isn't a useful measurement as they don't deplete in a linear fashion and they don't all deplete at the same rate.

If you think the thicker the better, well, I've never seen a person who thinks that and isn't new to this site change their mind so I won't try. As an extension to your thought process, though, why don't you have the HTHS of M1 0w-40 listed? That would certainly be higher so it must be better right?

 

[bepperb]

I couldn't help myself:

M1 0-20:
2.7 HTHS
8.8 TBN


M1 0-30
3.0 HTHS
9.1 TBN

M1 0-40
3.8 HTHS
11.8 TBN

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted By: ZZman
It seems like the 0-30 oils have a stronger add pack and the gas mileage difference should not be much different.

It would seem like the 30w would offer better part wear protection as well.

M1 0-20:

2.7 HTHS
8.8 TBN


M1 0-30

3.0 HTHS
9.1 TBN



instead of why not.. I'd rather know WHY I should run it.
you say they are barely different but one is susposed to protect better? The reverse argument would be since they are barely different why would it protect better?
Esp since my warranty calls for 0w20.

 

[callbay]

So why do manufactures often call for thicker oils for the same engines in countries other than the US? Might it be politcally motivated to call for the thinner oil rather than what is best for the engine?

 

[CATERHAM]

The TBN level is just one element of an add' pack' and higher isn't better unless you're planning on maximizing the OCI. If you're not, a higher TBN in theory can be a disadvantage since these elements compete with the AW additives in an oil.

The 30wt oil or an oil with a higher HTHSV rating will not provide better wear protection unless you're routinely seeing oil temp's high enough to warrant the thicker oil. And if you're not, it's counter-productive to run the heavier oil since it is disproportionately heavier at all start-up temp's and during the warming up process when most engine wear occurs.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: callbay
So why do manufactures often call for thicker oils for the same engines in countries other than the US? Might it be politcally motivated to call for the thinner oil rather than what is best for the engine?

For a number of reasons:
Firstly, you're usually talking about countries with warm to hot climates where the disavantage of running heavier oil is reduced and higher oil temp's are possible.
Secondly, demographics play a role. Other parts of the world tend to drive faster than we do and higher speeds means higher oil temp's necessitating heavier oil.
Thirdly, culture and oil availability plays a role. If 20wt oil is simply not often stocked by retailers you better spec' something that is.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: callbay
So why do manufactures often call for thicker oils for the same engines in countries other than the US? Might it be politcally motivated to call for the thinner oil rather than what is best for the engine?

CAFE. period.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: callbay
So why do manufactures often call for thicker oils for the same engines in countries other than the US? Might it be politcally motivated to call for the thinner oil rather than what is best for the engine?

CAFE. period.

You're wrong.
If CAFE didn't exist we would still have the trend to lighter oils including the adoption of 20wt oils by many manufacturer's.

 

[72te27]

Why do you believe that, Caterham? It would appear to much easier to make the arguement that manufacturers are simple bowing to the inevitable government pressure to meet gas mileage requirements. A time-line would not show a trend towards lower viscosities prior to government imposed, or at least implied, increasingly difficult to meet, CAFE requirements.

 

[ZZman]

Originally Posted By: sciphi
Well, run a 0w-20 to preserve powertrain warranty. Let Toyota/Honda deal with any failure related to the oil.


Do they require a 0w Oil or a 5w-20?

If it is 5w using a 0w would be incorrect as well.

I have never heard of a oil related failure. Oils are too good these days. It would be a mechanical failure not an oil failure.

 

[Rand]

they require 0w20 in the vast majority of new vehicles.
not saying you couldnt cherry pick some turbo'ed sports car etc that doesnt.

 

[45ACP]

Originally Posted By: 72te27
Why do you believe that, Caterham? It would appear to much easier to make the arguement that manufacturers are simple bowing to the inevitable government pressure to meet gas mileage requirements. A time-line would not show a trend towards lower viscosities prior to government imposed, or at least implied, increasingly difficult to meet, CAFE requirements.


You dont fully understand CATERHAM's dedication to thin oils at all costs, do you. Anything anyone says to the contrary of recommending a thin oil is incorrect, similar to.. a certain other situation with a motor oil that starts with M and a certain individual, who recommends that oil for any and every application, without regard to what the application is.

Look at Australia oils and car specs for proof. They recommend 'thicker." Why? Ask them.. but probably because they feel more comfortable with a greater margin of error in that horrid heat ad outbacking or safariing in tropical heat in vehicles prone to overheat i.e. high load.

Now, most of the time there is some kind of a point to be gleaned but every now and then it is in fact simple blind argument.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: 72te27
Why do you believe that, Caterham? It would appear to much easier to make the arguement that manufacturers are simple bowing to the inevitable government pressure to meet gas mileage requirements. A time-line would not show a trend towards lower viscosities prior to government imposed, or at least implied, increasingly difficult to meet, CAFE requirements.

The trend has been to lighter oils simply because they are more efficient lubricants in all regards including less friction and wear. Technology doesn't stand still. Even 20wt oil is too thick until the oil temp's are at least up to 80C in all applications. You will see even lighter oils in the future.
Most race oils today are 0W-XX oils including 0W-20 and 0W-10 grades and that has nothing to do with CAFE.