Why run a 0-20 instead of a 0-30 Oil?

[Clevy]

For example.....
It's 1999. Ford just comes out with the performance improved head for the 5.4/4.6 liter engines. The 4.6 are being built in Windsor ontario. Ford specs a 5w-30 for these motors. Let's fast forward to the year 2000. Ford is still building these exact same motors,in Windsor still and suddenly the oil spec changes to 5w-20. Right around the same time those CAFE laws are getting pushed on the auto industry.
Coincidence,or government pressure. Same motors,same cars. Different spec due to government regulations. No one can tell me that thinner oil protects better. Thinner cushion,less film between parts. Now will the engine last long enough for any of this to matter. Maybe not. But when government pushes their ideals on something such as this your car isn't what they care about.

 

[sciphi]

Originally Posted By: ZZman
Originally Posted By: sciphi
Well, run a 0w-20 to preserve powertrain warranty. Let Toyota/Honda deal with any failure related to the oil.


Do they require a 0w Oil or a 5w-20?

If it is 5w using a 0w would be incorrect as well.

I have never heard of a oil related failure. Oils are too good these days. It would be a mechanical failure not an oil failure.



The 2011 and newer Fits spec 0w-20. Ours specs 5w-20, and I run 0w-20 in it. And why would I run a 5w-20 when a superior cold-flowing oil that still maintains warranty is available?

 

[CATERHAM]

Again you're missing the point.
Yes you get better mileage with a lighter oil but the big strides to today have been made on oil being lighter on start-up and shear stability of multi-grade oils.
A 5W-20 dino today undoubtedly has a operational viscosity after 5,000 kms of use as high if not higher than a typical 5W-30 did back in the 90's. Are we really running lighter oils today? No, not in terms of average operational viscosity.

 

[72te27]

Actually, 45ACP, I don't agree that Caterham issues a "blind arguement" in pursuit of thin oils. He tends to back up his assertions with numbers and a bit of science, unlike most here. That's why I was curious about his CAFE comment.

OTOH, I will admit that it took a bit of reading and research before I had enough confidence to replace the dealer installed no name 5w-30 in my "new" used 2011 Mazda 6 with the Mazda stipulated 0w-20.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: 45ACP
Look at Australia oils and car specs for proof. They recommend 'thicker." Why? Ask them.. but probably because they feel more comfortable with a greater margin of error in that horrid heat ad outbacking or safariing in tropical heat in vehicles prone to overheat i.e. high load.


That's true to a point, but certainly not always. My G specs 5w-30 in Canada, the States, and in Australia. What's available and at what cost is also an issue.

Are we in North America prisoner to CAFE, or are those in other countries prisoner to the "thicker is better" viewpoint?

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: ZZman
Amsoil Sig

0-20

2.8 HTHS
12.6 TBN

0-30

3.1 HTHS
12.6 TBN

Pablo: Is the add pack the same or better in Amsoil's 0-30?


They are very similar.

So you are saying the 0W-30 is somehow "better" based on these two numbers? That's not logical.

 

[ZZman]

I am asking.

If the formulas are similar would a oil with a higher HTHS # offer better protection in theory?

 

[45ACP]

Originally Posted By: 72te27
Actually, 45ACP, I don't agree that Caterham issues a "blind arguement" in pursuit of thin oils. He tends to back up his assertions with numbers and a bit of science, unlike most here. That's why I was curious about his CAFE comment.

OTOH, I will admit that it took a bit of reading and research before I had enough confidence to replace the dealer installed no name 5w-30 in my "new" used 2011 Mazda 6 with the Mazda stipulated 0w-20.


Just as long as the oil can "do its thing" (transfer heat and provide cushion) at MINIMUM oil pressure, then i can get behind almost everything CATERHAM says.

This CAFE thing, however, MAY not be in the best interest of engines, but rather fuel economy.

if both can get done at the same time then thats fine, but i have to ask if an engine is ever "made for" a 20-weight oil. (Going by HTHS calling it 20-weight that is. cP 3.0 or less)

 

[CATERHAM]

The only advantage of a 30wt oil over a 20wt in a 20wt application is "safety margin" in the event of unexpected high oil temp's, fuel dilution or oil shear with a low quality 30wt oil.
Or to put it another way, in most 20 and 30wt applications, the optimum oil viscosity with a 30wt oil isn't acheived until the oil temperature is around 120C. And considering that most engines never even see oil temp's even as high as 100C on the hottest summer day you are ALWAYS runnning an oil heavier than optimum.

It's unfortunate that most cars today don't come equipped with oil pressure and/or oil temp' gauges. If they did then most BITOG members and others would be reminded everytime they drove their car just how much of the time the oil is way thicker than optimum. Any that's virtually all the time even with the lightest 0W-20 oil you can find.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: callbay
So why do manufactures often call for thicker oils for the same engines in countries other than the US? Might it be politcally motivated to call for the thinner oil rather than what is best for the engine?

CAFE. period.


I started using M1 5-20 in 1978 long before CAFE. This was in engines calling for 10-40.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
For example.....
It's 1999. Ford just comes out with the performance improved head for the 5.4/4.6 liter engines. The 4.6 are being built in Windsor ontario. Ford specs a 5w-30 for these motors. Let's fast forward to the year 2000. Ford is still building these exact same motors,in Windsor still and suddenly the oil spec changes to 5w-20. Right around the same time those CAFE laws are getting pushed on the auto industry.
Coincidence,or government pressure. Same motors,same cars. Different spec due to government regulations. No one can tell me that thinner oil protects better. Thinner cushion,less film between parts. Now will the engine last long enough for any of this to matter. Maybe not. But when government pushes their ideals on something such as this your car isn't what they care about.


Do you mean gov'ts like Japan? Most of the engines coming from that area are using 0-20 or 5-20 oils.

 

[4ever4d]

The CAFE argument of thin oil isn't all the story. The fuel mileage gain between a 20 and a 30 is minimal at most,not nearly enough for Ford,Chrysler,Honda or Toyota to spend the bucks on re vamping their engine programs just for a "thin" oil. Back specing cars and trucks to a "thin" oil after many man hours and dollars of testing. A"thin" oil flows quicker for better cold start protection and it also dissipates heat much quicker. It would make better sense to put the blame on aerodynamics. Most of today's vehicles instead of having an open grille with open air flow have small narrow slits to allow cool air to flow through to the engine compartment and most as well have plastic covers on top of and surrounding the engine in some form that hold more heat, gone are the shrouded six blade fans that would pull air through a large opening blowing it around a bare metal surface when needed. All this has been replaced for the sake of more horsepower and less engine drag from smaller engines, that work more to achieve the same results, with electric fans and a better drag coeffience. In that respect CAFE could play in. The oil plus more use of aluminum parts allows more heat dissipation quicker and radiators are smaller as well. The only thing you see today with the open airflow are large trucks knowing they will be pulling and hauling loads needing the extra cooling capacity throwing "CAFE" to the wind, so to speak.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Right around the same time those CAFE laws are getting pushed on the auto industry.
Coincidence,or government pressure. Same motors,same cars. Different spec due to government regulations.


Maybe so, but what does that have to do with how thinner oils protect your car? This is the definition of false dichotomy.

Originally Posted By: Clevy
No one can tell me that thinner oil protects better.


As soon as you start digging your heels in like this, the learning stops, and that's unfortunate. I'm glad I was a little more open-minded when I researched whether or not the government-mandated 5W20 was going to wreck my engine.


Originally Posted By: Clevy
Thinner cushion,less film between parts.


If you really believe that, you should spend a little more time researching the effect of viscosity under high pressure. Thicker oils can, depending on their location in the engine, result in thinner films. I realize this doesn't fit your preconceived bias, but that's reality.

Originally Posted By: Clevy
But when government pushes their ideals on something such as this your car isn't what they care about.


Maybe not, you seem insistent on finding fault with thinner oils based on your own ideals that anything government-mandated must inherently be bad--and it seems to prevent you from objectively looking at the issue. I really don't think that Caterham is pushing thin oils because he's a government plant trying to ruin our engines.....




....or is he???

 

[4ever4d]

I really don't think that Caterham is pushing thin oils because he's a government plant trying to ruin our engines.....

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: 4ever4d
I really don't think that Caterham is pushing thin oils because he's a government plant trying to ruin our engines.....

it's the ones you least suspect...

seriously, I discovered this forum when I bought my Freestyle about 4 years ago. It was spec'd for 5W20, and I'd never even hear of this grade! Local stores didn't carry it, and I had a long succession of euro cars, Volvo's and some other "V" brand that I've banished from memory. The thinnest oil I had used previously was 10W30 in my CRX in the dead of winter, and even that made me nervous.

Fuel economy is of zero concern WRT my oil selection. While oil viscosity may matter on the macro level for FE, on an individual level it's a minimal difference. I'd us 0W40 in a heartbeat if I thought it offered more protection. I learned enough on this site to realize that the thinnest suitable oil is going to make for the least amount of wear, and that's why I use it.

 

[4ever4d]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: 4ever4d
I really don't think that Caterham is pushing thin oils because he's a government plant trying to ruin our engines.....

it's the ones you least suspect...

seriously, I discovered this forum when I bought my Freestyle about 4 years ago. It was spec'd for 5W20, and I'd never even hear of this grade! Local stores didn't carry it, and I had a long succession of euro cars, Volvo's and some other "V" brand that I've banished from memory. The thinnest oil I had used previously was 10W30 in my CRX in the dead of winter, and even that made me nervous.

Fuel economy is of zero concern WRT my oil selection. While oil viscosity may matter on the macro level for FE, on an individual level it's a minimal difference. I'd us 0W40 in a heartbeat if I thought it offered more protection. I learned enough on this site to realize that the thinnest suitable oil is going to make for the least amount of wear, and that's why I use it.

I totally agree.I use both 5-20 and 5-30 and feel comfortable doing so. If Ford were to backspec my truck to 5-20 as they did my car i would have no issues using it in both. As far as that goes i have debated on going to a 0w-20/30 but i don't feel its needed in my particular climate.

 

[Oregoonian]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Right around the same time those CAFE laws are getting pushed on the auto industry.
Coincidence,or government pressure. Same motors,same cars. Different spec due to government regulations.


Maybe so, but what does that have to do with how thinner oils protect your car? This is the definition of false dichotomy.

Originally Posted By: Clevy
No one can tell me that thinner oil protects better.


As soon as you start digging your heels in like this, the learning stops, and that's unfortunate. I'm glad I was a little more open-minded when I researched whether or not the government-mandated 5W20 was going to wreck my engine.


Originally Posted By: Clevy
Thinner cushion,less film between parts.


If you really believe that, you should spend a little more time researching the effect of viscosity under high pressure. Thicker oils can, depending on their location in the engine, result in thinner films. I realize this doesn't fit your preconceived bias, but that's reality.

Originally Posted By: Clevy
But when government pushes their ideals on something such as this your car isn't what they care about.


Maybe not, you seem insistent on finding fault with thinner oils based on your own ideals that anything government-mandated must inherently be bad--and it seems to prevent you from objectively looking at the issue. I really don't think that Caterham is pushing thin oils because he's a government plant trying to ruin our engines.....




....or is he???


Well said JOD.....Clevy has in other posts.... trashed anything government.... and especially the USA.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: tig1
I started using M1 5-20 in 1978 long before CAFE. This was in engines calling for 10-40.


I can't remember my dad, who was the old school mechanic of old school mechanics, even using a 40 weight in anything except diesels. He adopted multigrade 30 weights from the outset and stuck to resource conserving 30s. Heck, he avoided dual rated 10w-30s like the plague, unless in a diesel.

As I've said before, he used to say "too thick" all the time, and that was before the web.

 

[45ACP]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Clevy
For example.....
It's 1999. Ford just comes out with the performance improved head for the 5.4/4.6 liter engines. The 4.6 are being built in Windsor ontario. Ford specs a 5w-30 for these motors. Let's fast forward to the year 2000. Ford is still building these exact same motors,in Windsor still and suddenly the oil spec changes to 5w-20. Right around the same time those CAFE laws are getting pushed on the auto industry.
Coincidence,or government pressure. Same motors,same cars. Different spec due to government regulations. No one can tell me that thinner oil protects better. Thinner cushion,less film between parts. Now will the engine last long enough for any of this to matter. Maybe not. But when government pushes their ideals on something such as this your car isn't what they care about.


Do you mean gov'ts like Japan? Most of the engines coming from that area are using 0-20 or 5-20 oils.


Japan has long had a history of intelligence with maximizing profits and efficiency, at least as far as the automobile products are concerned. Look to the West, with Europe for your heavier oils. Namely Austria, Germany, Europe, AUSTRALIA.

k?

 

[Coprolite]

Love the quote about government mandated 5w-20, especially since my car specs 5w-30. I guess they are breaking the law?