Or maybe it's because chains are superior...
Why does Honda insist on using timing belts instead of chains?
- Thread starter grampi
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Wouldn’t a good question be ONE that there isn’t a general answer to? One that can be discussed, debated and answered in the best terms available to people experiences?
Because that’s what these message boards are for.
As for me, personally, I do prefer shorter intervals because of the idea that I’ll want the vehicle around and running well with 300,000 miles on it, after I’ve used it and probably my kids. Then it’s off to the bone yard it goes. What I don’t want is chain guard failure, stretched chains, actuator failure, and oil consumption. I don’t want oil control rings stuck in their lands, scraping the side of my cylinders and causing me to need a new engine block. Those things I fear because those are failures. There are reasons I keep cars long term - because I like investing in stocks and real estate - not cars, trucks or SUV’s. Having said that, yeah I have considered longer intervals on my current engine (2GRFE) because it’s not direct injected, turbo’d and it seems to historically be reliable. Whereas my last car (Lexus LS460) really didn’t do well with extended drains (my fault for trying), as the rings were shot at 150,000 miles, on its way to drinking a quart every 500 miles at 179,000 miles.
So, I think they’re all good questions. And I’d love some formulas to convince me to go 10,000 miles on an oil change. Or some options. I’m serious. I love learning things and trying stuff out.
A good question provides all the required data (which car, which conditions etc).
It needs to be application specific.
That's done on this forum every day. If you ask for general rules, which also uses
to happen every day, it's not that helpful at all.
Saturn dealerships used to make a huge deal about having timing chains. They had this serious hard sell going on, in addition to the hard sell about the plastic door panels.
Sam_Julier
$50 Site Donor 2024
A well maintained car. Congrats.
Vehicles with TBs can be maintained just as well, but will still require TB replacements...
and other work too.
Nah.
You certainly don’t think so, otherwise you wouldn’t have helped your kid into another one.
On some V8 Audi cars it is about 32+ hrs labor to remove the engine and replace the chains if no broken, rotten bolts are encountered on an old car, that does not include any additional items like oil, filter, coolant, belts, hoses, seals etc. the chain and guides are over 5 grand at the dealer. This is a 10K+ job, nothing for the shade tree, it is a job for an A mechanic with the equipment and tools.
Complete Timing Chain Kit - ultimate
Everything need to get the job done including the upgraded RS4 metal guide rail!
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On some V8 Audi cars it is about 32+ hrs labor to remove the engine and replace the chains if no broken, rotten bolts are encountered on an old car, that does not include any additional items like oil, filter, coolant, belts, hoses, seals etc. the chain and guides are over 5 grand at the dealer. This is a 10K+ job, nothing for the shade tree, it is a job for an A mechanic with the equipment and tools.
Complete Timing Chain Kit - ultimate
Everything need to get the job done including the upgraded RS4 metal guide rail!
Yessh Trav....at that point Id probably swap the mill out for a rebuild and put new accessories on.
From the vehicle that brought the question up: They didn't. The replacement used Honda vehicle has a belt replacement in it's near future.
Clearly Honda uses belts because it's not a deterrent to those buying them new, who dump the vehicle before it needs expensive maintenance, and even those buying them used as your example clearly shows us.
One key difference: chains are covered under warranty esp. extended warranties where belts are generally a maintenance/wear item.
I have had plenty of trouble with chains stretching out and hammering the exhaust valve tips till they fatigue flake, rattling... even watched a new GM Tahoe V8 with 7 miles on it getting replaced because the chain broke and bent the valves before it was even sold new. Just because chains generally don't have a "Replace at X miles" in the owner's manual doesn't mean they will last forever.
Gears like the loud 2.5L Iron Duke 4 banger had...
They have a fiber gear on the cam that can chunk and fail as well. At least it's a non-interference engine. There are better gear drive examples out there like Pete Jackson Gear Drives or Cummins Diesel and both are noted to be noisy.
Dave, that's why so many went to the junkyard, like Subaru with head gasket issues the repair is more than the car is worth.
The good part of that is there are lots of good low mile parts and good body parts available for cheap. If I get one of these cars for myself the labor isn't money out of my pocket, I can do it at my leisure and get all the parts I need other than the engine parts used for cheap.
A used engine for the Audi is not the best option as it my be one trip away or even has a blown chain and a reman may cost more than 10K anyway.
The good part of that is there are lots of good low mile parts and good body parts available for cheap. If I get one of these cars for myself the labor isn't money out of my pocket, I can do it at my leisure and get all the parts I need other than the engine parts used for cheap.
A used engine for the Audi is not the best option as it my be one trip away or even has a blown chain and a reman may cost more than 10K anyway.
Honda is using an old design of V6 dating back to 1995 and timing belts were normal. It is still a competitive motor all these years forward.
Something I haven't seen mentioned, or maybe I missed it. At least in most of the vehicles that use the J-Series motor, they are designed to have the belt replaced. Meaning you can get to everything with no special tools. Most chain based motors are designed with the assumption that the whole unit will go to the dump when it wears out/breaks, so if you have the need to replace it before everything else is done, it is a nightmare, or requires special tools, or you have to pull the motor to get to everything, etc.
Sure, a lot of cars go to the crusher on the original chain, but there are PLENTY that have chain issues before the rest of the car is used up.
--Edit--
The brand new J30AC turbocharged engine in the TLX Type-S is...wait for it....a timing belt engine. So apparently they like it enough that a 'new' J-Series with DOHC's still uses a belt.
Sure, a lot of cars go to the crusher on the original chain, but there are PLENTY that have chain issues before the rest of the car is used up.
--Edit--
The brand new J30AC turbocharged engine in the TLX Type-S is...wait for it....a timing belt engine. So apparently they like it enough that a 'new' J-Series with DOHC's still uses a belt.
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Only if they're badly designed, or ingest a foreign object.
That was a common failure mode of circa 1960s Big 3 V8s at around that same mileage, even if well maintained. A friend had that happen on both a 289 Ford and a 318 Dodge. Many Pontiacs did it, too.
Many people forget that often the engine needed overhauled at 100k miles back then. . A smart mechanic would have put in a new chain at that time.
My comment was only in regard to most modern engines being interference engines which in itself carries a certain amount of risk. As I said in my other post in this thread I don't have a preference for belt or chain. They each have advantages and disadvantages.
Guide‘s cracking, chains stretching due to wear, sprocket wear, chain tensioner failure, oil leaks from covers, increased cost of repair.
Most Timing belts can be replaced in 3-4 hours, cost of repair max £800. Most dealers have a fixed price for this that is discounted as well. Timing chain replacement on a 3.0 TDI Audi can run to £7000 if the camshafts are needed.
I know which I would rather, the maintenance team I have budgeted for and have the money ready to do, NOT the failure that could cost more than the vehicle is worth.
Also, you can get 3 kids, 2 adults and enough stuff for a weeks holiday in a Golf GTI ( my wife’s daily driver) so stop your daughter buying over sized expensive cars that are financially crippling.
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